Generation Cedar

Because I love God’s people…because I’m heart-broken over the constant news of God’s people losing their children, or raising spiritually impotent ones…because I believe there is clarity from Scripture about the responsibility of Christian parents….and because I would betray my conscience to refrain from speaking.

Voddie Baucham posted a poignant look at public school and the Christian’s responsibility…it’s worth clicking the link at the bottom to read in its entirety.

Please know that though this topic is sure to arouse anger and the accusations that I’m so accustomed to, I post in humility and love…love could be the only possible reason I would dare to subject myself to the persecution to come.

“Jesus made it quite clear when he said, “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30 ESV)  I am amazed at how many Christians refuse to acknowledge this fact as it relates to the government school system.  Our education is either based on biblical truth, or some other truth.  There is no such thing as neutrality in this regard.  All education is religious in nature.  Since it is illegal for students in our government schools to be taught from a Christian perspective, then it follows that they must be taught from a non (or anti) Christian perspective….

According to the common refrain, “It doesn’t matter what educational choice you make… you just have to pray about it and do what the Lord leads your family to do.” However, I must confess I find this this concept disturbing on a number of fronts.  First, this kind of thinking denies the sufficiency of Scripture.  The Bible speaks either directly, or principally to every aspect of life.  There are no grey areas.  Sure, there are things that are difficult to discern, but education is not one of them.”    -Voddie Baucham

Top 5 Reasons Not to Send Your Kids Back to Gov’t School

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106 Responses

  1. Wow, that was a great article! I immediately sent the link to my husband. Oh how I wish more people could see the truth in those words. The statistics he gave about the percentage of professing Christians sending their kids to the government schools is so sad. It’s no wonder our country is in the mess it is now.

    But there’s always hope!

  2. It’s not that those of us who don’t necessarily agree are angry at people that home school. We just don’t see things the same way. I see plenty of home schooled kids who are now sold out completely and totally to the world. Until I see that trend change, I wouldn’t want to home school unless I had to.

    The ones that were home schooled that went on to live for the Lord are so full of pride about how spiritual they are that they don’t want to be friends with anyone anyway.

    I know some home schoolers now that are doing a wonderful job, but I also know somy (in my own family) who are losing their children to the world because they aren’t doing a good job.

  3. Mrs. W.,

    Here’s the error in your logic…

    “I see plenty of home schooled kids who are now sold out completely and totally to the world.”

    Based on the article, Mr. Baucham suggests that it is our DUTY to educate our children apart from the government’s system. Basing that decision on “whether it works” is pragmatic, not biblical.

    It’s like saying, “Well, I know lots of parents who read the Bible to their children and their children are worldly; so I’m not going to read the Bible to my children.”

    It’s more than just as assessment of the few homeschoolers you’ve observed (which I’m guessing is small, because I know lots and lots and very few have “gone the way of the world”.) It’s about understanding our responsibility before the Lord, and doing it reagardless.

  4. I guess what I mean is that it is certainly “hit and miss” when it comes to home schooling. It is certainly NOT a guarantee that you will have godly kids. My SIL was exclusively home schooled, and left home to be a lesbian, partially because of the abuse in their Christian family. Whenever my husband or his sister tried to speak out they were told stuff like they were lying and should be ashamed to speak about their godly family in that manner…

    The next girl down is doing ok so far, she at least seems to be walking in the right direction, but she tries to get away with so much too that you have to wonder if her heart is really in it.

    You can already see that the next child down, a boy, has huge problems. He’s been exclusively home schooled too.

    With the other two, it’s too early to tell how their lives might end up, but one of the little ones is extremely rebellious already.

    I’m not blaming the home schooling as much as the family. However, I do believe the kids might have been just a little more adjusted and able to get some kind of help had they been allowed to attend even a Christian school. Somebody might have believed the older two instead of berating them for trying to speak out about their situation.

    It’s really a tough call, which is why I do think it’s important to give each other liberty in these kinds of decisions.

  5. I really liked his number 5 reason – “You don’t have to”. This right to keep our children out may not be around for very long (UN treaty for parental rights in the works) So many parents who send their children to public school tout “My daughter is getting straight A’s – she’s doing very well.” But the daughter would never choose to spend time with the family, and she has no respect for authority or hard work. Good grades from a “good school” is not an indication of good character in your children.

    In spite of the persecution you may face – that we all face to some degree – it is worth it to speak the truth. God’s ways are higher than our ways. “for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matt 7:13-14

  6. See, I see no evidence whatsoever that a parent is REQUIRED Biblically to home school. I see in the Old Testament that Jewish parents were to raise their children a particular way.

    And for the record, I know MANY home schoolers, in more than one country, and most don’t give a rip about the Lord. I do think that is just where we are headed as a whole, but some of these kids might not have gotten there so quickly.

    The New Testament tells us we are to go into all the world and share the gospel with everyone. How can our children be obedient to that if they are always at home?

  7. Mrs Kelly,

    You said: “Basing that decision on “whether it works” is pragmatic, not biblical.”

    IF the Bible said that we must home school our children, or even indicated that, then yes, I would agree with you. Since it doesn’t, though, I do tend to look at the fruit it produces.

    That being said, I don’t really want my kids in public school either, and I’d probably home school them before putting them in public school.

  8. Sorry if the last comment posted twice, I am having trouble on here today.

    By the way, you need to go have your baby. LOL.

  9. “And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at Him.” Mark 12:17

    Biblical evidence that we SHOULD NOT send our children to gov’t-controlled schools.

    Biblical evident to teach our own children:

    “You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up” Deut. 6:7

  10. Besides, that verse in Deuteronomy is speaking about teaching children God’s commandments. They don’t need to be home schooled to be taught those. It was a command to the Jews to teach their children God’s commandments, not that they had to teach them their education at home.

    Reading a verse in context, as well as figuring out what it means instead of what we want it to mean, is really quite helpful. 🙂

  11. Mrs. W….

    You made about 4 points I want to answer…

    1. You said your SIL was homeschooled and turned out to be a lesbian, then you admit it was due to “abuse”??? How do you logically then blame homeschooling in any way for her problems? That’s reaching at best.

    2. The article by Dr. Baucham was not emphasizing homeschooling as the only way but rather revealing the inconsistency of Christians who allow the government to educate their children.

    3. “How do homeschooled children go out into the world if they’re always at home”? Think about that for a minute…They are not “always at home” And further, our children were NOT given the command to go make disciples; Christians were, and as such, it reasons that *families* are that vehicle. No where does Scripture support my “sending my children out into the world to make disciples”; I have to make THEM disciples first 😉

    If you want to talk about “doing what works”, I can PROMISE you sending your kids to public school to evangelize other kids does not.

  12. Mrs. W.,

    Dr. Baucham listed several more verses besides Deuteronomy. And I don’t regard the OT as “speaking only to the Jews”…Jesus quoted to us from it, Paul and the disciples used the OT to teach the church (the NT was not yet written)…so to dismiss the OT as instruction and guidance is dangerous and messy.

  13. “The New Testament tells us we are to go into all the world and share the gospel with everyone. How can our children be obedient to that if they are always at home?”

    As my family and I drive by the gov’t institution, hidden away from view are someone’s blessings, loosing their purity and faith, hidden away from the real world while we stand out on soil where we are truly free to share Christ in “all the world” in purity and truth.

    They are children!! They are being withheld from the real world and their families, stuck in there like the mush in the dead sea, spoiling among their sins and childish, ungodly influence with no outlet of relief.

  14. Kelly:
    I thought you would find this interesting. I have a friend who has her AA (and 6 children). She is now going to take 1 class at a time to get her bachelor’s degree specifically so that she can homeschool her children. She believes (based on some stuff in California) that with the way the government is changing, that one day it will be outlawed to homeschool or that you have to have a 4 year degree to do so. In any case, she is getting prepared. Have you heard anything about this? If so, it might make an interesting blog article!

    Jess in Peru
    P.S. Glad I have my bachelor’s – just in case it comes to that!

  15. That verse applies to me too. I will not give what is the Lord’s, my blessings, to Caesar, which represents the government.

    “All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” 2 tim. 3:16

  16. Kelly,
    I just luv your blog.
    So very glad you are here for us to chat with you and one another. So often, you have presented information that I haven’t heard about or seen before as I travel through cyberspace on the internet.

    May God richly bless you.
    May your bloggers be refreshed in the Lord.
    Chattering away from Kansas,
    ~D~

  17. I stand firm that ALL of the verses that I posted are profitable for us to live by!!!

    I cannot teach my children God’s commandments unless I am with them, and that is just the way it is. And, I will not give my children up to the control of the gov’t and its ungodly disciples. I know the context well.

    Blessings,
    Misty Smith

  18. Jess,

    Yes I have thought of that very thing; It would be interesting to know if one could homeschool legally with any bachelor’s, or if you had to have a teaching certificate, specifically. It’s also something to consider while we educate our children…so that they are prepared as well.

  19. I just wanted to say I enjoy your blog. I had a question though. Is it wrong for christians to be teachers in the public school system? There are two teachers in my church who teach in public schools and they have been able to form prayer groups for other teachers either before or after school. They have been able to witness to others.

  20. Mrs Kelly,

    My point about my SIL was that some families home school to hide abuse or other such things. I think all the influences, home schooling, abuse etc helped sway her, even though it was her decision.

    It was the same for me. I was told that because my parents were “godly” enough and “loved me” enough to home school me, that I was lying about the stuff that went on in my home and therefore was being disrespectful. I know several families that do that. My dad even told me he home schooled us particularly so that the government couldn’t take us away when they saw the marks of beatings on our bodies.

    Even if the Deut. verse is speaking to us, it is not speaking about education, but teaching children the commands of God, which we can do no matter where they go to school.

    I know some great home schooling families. I am supportive of those that want to do it (the normal families that is) the only thing I don’t support is those same people telling me that I MUST home school MINE in order to be right with God.

    Misty,

    Yes, that is a great verse. But again, the Deut. verse, even if talking to us, is NOT talking about SCHOOLING or EDUCATION. It’s talking about raising children to know God’s commandments. That can be done no matter where a child goes to school.

    Can’t we just be honest about what Scripture says instead of trying to twist it to support what we want to do? (Home school).

    Anyhow I am having trouble posting things here and don’t want to seem argumentative when I am just having an interesting discussion, so I will leave it at that for now. I have several home schooling friends and we talk about this stuff all the time. At least they are honest enough to at least see the points I make, even if they don’t agree with them as reasons for not home schooling.

    By the way, if every single verse of Scripture is speaking directly to us, why don’t we worship on Saturday or make sacrifices, or keep the law anymore?

  21. Kelly: Interestingly enough, she is pursuing a degree in “education.” I hope it doesn’t come to that one day! Blessings – Jess

  22. Mrs. W.,

    It’s interesting that you are being so defensive about homeschooling, and asserting things that haven’t even been hinted at…

    ***the only thing I don’t support is those same people telling me that I MUST home school MINE in order to be right with God. ***

    Who said this? Dr. Baucham, if I’m not mistaking, doesn’t even mention homeschooling in the article. You’re not even addressing the topic at hand–government school.

    Regarding your other point…A careful study of theology (and I’m NOT a theologian 😉 has the reasonable answer as to “why we don’t follow the Mosaic laws” but still adhere to the instruction of the OT. Just because the old covenant was done away with and replaced with the new, doesn’t mean all the instruction from the OT was thrown out. Only those things specifically nullified.

    That being said, how do we teach our children the things of God (Deuteronomy and LOTS of other verses) “when we rise up, lie down, walk during the day, etc.” if we’re not with them during those times? And very practically speaking, public schools send so much homework home (does that raise a red flag for anybody?) the little time we do have at night is mostly consumed. From a logical standpoint, it is virtually impossible to “undo” the teaching they receive that is not of God in the little time left. It’s worth considering, you have to admit.

  23. Mrs. W,

    I guess that is the breakdown that we are having with our interpretation of this scripture. I see “God’s commandments” as the basis of education and schooling. If you take God out of it, the author and creator of it all, you have rubbish. I do not see ANY biblical basis to put children in an environment where they are fed rubbish all day.

    I guess most people don’t even understand WHAT a biblical education is and how it is so very different then a public one. They are NOT interchangeable. (This is why many homeschoolers are having bad outcomes. They are simply teaching the same foolishness found in as the school system and allowing their children to be exposed to the same influences AT HOME.) Many of us are not teaching that stuff in our homes. We should be teaching GOD”S COMMANDMENTS. So, YES, I agree with you THIS SCRIPTURE IS REFERRING TO TEACHING GOD”S COMMANDMENTS!!

    See, I think home-education allows us the opportunity to rethink and implement what is a good and godly education. It begins with “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” Deut. 6:5

    Proverbs 9:10 says “The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.” The school system DOES NOT FEAR THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, no wisdom, no understanding.

    Learning of His Creation, studying the human body, even math is designed to help us LOVE HIM to the fullest.

    But in public school this great opportunity for our children to know Him and Love Him more has been stripped away, making it NOT SUITABLE for Christian children.

    Then to many ignore the second part of verse 7 when God says, we must utilize opportunities stated that occur in the morning, noon and night. It is an ALL day job. Now, the gov’t sucks up not just a little bit of their valuable hours that could be used to teach our children to love God, but A LOT!!!

    I stand that I feel that I am being honest with the Scripture and hopefully LIVING IT TO ITS FULLNESS.

  24. The way I see the whole sending our children to the P.S. to be an evangelist argument is that 80% of christian parents already send their kids to public schools, and it isn’t helping that much. If they are to be light, then why are so many leaving the faith after their freshman year in college and why are the schools so worldly? For me with that number of christians attending the p.s., then it would stand to reason that the schools should be a place filled with prayers, songs, preaching on every corner, and conversions for Christ daily. The reason it isn’t is that they still need the milk of the Word themselves and have no basis for teaching other kids things they don’t fully undertstand. How can they share light if they don’t have it yet? I don’t know many 5 year olds that have accepted Jesus and are truly evangelistic minded. In fact, the Bible tells us that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. Until our children accept Christ, they are not in a position to evangelize.

    Also, from the statistics, it seems that the worldly (secular humanistic) type of evangelizing is going on and is highly successful. Why does every parent that defends this system think that the p.s. is the only place a child can be light? We don’t lock the kids in the basement! Kids follow the example that is set for them. If a parent isn’t evangelizing , then neither will the kids no matter where they happen to be.

  25. Carolyn,

    I certainly don’t know the answer to that question. I have heard the argument that Christians shouldn’t even be teaching in the system, and it was eloquently and philosophically stated, and I couldn’t recall all the points if I had to. The speaker declared, as one of the point, that the public school system itself was “an illegal institution”, but again, I can’t recall all the documentation, though his argument sounded solid when I heard it 😉

    That being said, it’s a hard thing to think that maybe Christians shouldn’t teach in public school. I’ve always wondered though, would a Christian teacher apply for a job at a strictly Islamic school? Even on the basis of seeking to witness to students there? I just don’t know..it’s something I think people should consider seriously, though. I have many Christian friends teaching in the system as well, and I certainly believe they all have the very best intentions.

  26. The way I see it: it is not a 5 year old’s responsibility to be “Salt and Light.” What a heavy burden for a kid who can barely tie his shoes. Why would we do this to our children? It is the parents job to train him to be Salt and Light so that when he is at an age of accountability, reasoning and understanding (which certainly is not 5-10 years old), he may, on His own accord, venture into the darkness to be the light willingly and purposefully. He will then know how to take a stand against darkness. But to expect 1 young child to be the light amongst 20 that are not, is some seriously BAD parenting!!!!!! I couldn’t leave that one alone!

  27. Personally, I don’t think the Bible is for or against homeschooling. I think it’s an individual decision made by the family. I’ve felt this way since I learned that Jesus probably (more than likely as he was raised in the Jewish tradition and could read) went to school (probably Hebrew) with all the other boys.

    As far as how kids turned out – I grew up in churches that believed that homeschooling was the only way and sending your kids to public school was doing a terrible injustice to your children, and yet out of all the homeschooling families I knew (which were a lot) the majority of the kids have turned out to be pretty worldly (even the girls who didn’t go to college – one girl completely backslid after being into missions her early adult life). In fact, they have turned out more worldly then some of my worldly friends. Whereas a lot of us public schoolers have continued along in our faith with Jesus. My brothers and I have grown up going to public school and none of us have strayed.

    I don’t think that just because kids go to a public school they are going to turn out to be heathens. It’s the homelife that counts and my parents raised us to be Godly Christians at home and in the world. I’d like to add that I was never ashamed of either of my parents and my father could give me hugs in public. Everyone knew I was a Christian and I NEVER had anyone persecute for me because of it, despite going to some so-so schools (and I went to a lot of different schools because we moved due to dad’s job).

    I always thought it funny that my brother, the president of the Bible club got voted in as prom king (he didn’t apply to be it), because he was so outspoken about his faith and actually won ground with the public school to be able to display it (it’s a long story). That brother is now a pastor 🙂

    My personal opinion about children is that you do your best by them, but when they grow up they’ll go whichever way they choose. Hopefully they’ll go the right way, but there is no guarantee.

    Besides, those kids that renounce their faith in Christ after a freshman year in college might come back to the faith further down the road.

    Like I said, I’m not against homeschooling, nor do I look down on a family if they do so, I think it’s each family’s decision to do what they feel is best.

  28. orual,

    That is a nice thought, though as Dr. Baucham pointed out, Scripture already has a whole lot to say about what is *right* regarding who we let educate/influence our children.

    Not talking about homeschooling, per se, but government ed. here.

    You said, “My personal opinion about children is that you do your best by them”…

    The Bible doesn’t leave us to flounder and question about “what is best by them”. It is very detailed (and dogmatic, if you want to get down to it) about the influences that we shouldn’t dare let mentor and disciple our children (which is what happens when a child spend most of his day somewhere.)

    Again, no place for pragmatism here (“I know homeschooled children who don’t walk with the Lord”…) That just isn’t the way Christians are to approach child-rearing.

    Based on the clear principles of Scripture about how they are to be taught and trained, there is virtually no room for argument about placing them under the instruction of an anti-Christian institution.

    I am walking with the Lord now, and I was public schooled. I rebelled like the devil for a lot of years. These facts have nothing to do with what I am now called to do as a parent. (My parents, and most of our parents, just didn’t know, I think…so I don’t blame them.)

    I’m called to obey the Lord, bringing up my children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Can I do that for 2 hours a day (after baths, homework, etc.) while allowing my children to receive non-Christian training for the rest of the day?

    And EVEN IF I COULD, does it justify placing them under the discipleship of someone else forbidden to give them Christian instruction?

    I’m writing in a tone of love, though you can’t *hear* me 😉

  29. The only reason why I read your blog and even feel compelled to post (the 2 times that I have – wait this is a third) Word Warrior, is because you allow dissenting points of view and respond with a respectful response. 🙂

    I know I wrote about my personal opinion, and I say it that way because I have read the scriptures and don’t feel compelled to home school. I am, however, involved in my children’s classroom, I review their curriculum, and have no problem discussing issues I have with the teacher. I have pulled one of my children out of their class during story-time (the teacher was reading a novel) when she (the teacher) was reading a story that I didn’t approve of (I read all the books, textbooks that my kids read LOL). The teacher took it with good grace :). (My parents did the same with me). My children, for the most part (there was an occasion where I had to), don’t go to aftercare, so I have a good five hours with them after school. 🙂 My husband and I have worked out a schedule for them to be home for the summer.

    We only have our personal experiences and scripture to go by. Neither myself nor my brothers rebelled in our growing up years. My brothers went to college (one went to a state college) and didn’t rebel (they were active in their church youth programs). I never felt put out because I was a Christian.

    I don’t want to hog to much of your forum 🙂 so I’ll stop. It is difficult for me to write out my thoughts and feelings about scripture and what it means – it would take me forever LOL.

    *Hugs*

  30. I am just shocked that someone would confide they bore bruises from the beatings of their father to you, Mrs Kelly, and your response is not concern or sympathy, but IMMEDIATELY you seek to show how the person confiding such in you is WRONG in her opinions.

    You know, maybe she is wrong. But I would bet every paltry penny of physical wealth and good fortune that I have, that arguing an ultimately meaningless and minor point about the fruit of homeschooling would NOT have been Jesus’ reaction to her story.

    I know you are about to have a baby any day now. But you are also a grown woman and a mature Christian, so I am going to presume you are a

    Don’t publish this. I’m not sending it in to score points against you. I’m sending to to urge you to send poor Mrs W an email. You are a wife and a Christian with many years experience and she is absolutely crying out for Christian love. Help her.

    If you are not able to offer that, you shouldn’t be posting about such difficult topics. But don’t wimp out and tell yourself ‘oooh, I have a talent for asking questions, but not for comforting or encouraging when those questions distress or confuse my readers’. If you want to ask the questions, you need to be able to support and direct your readers.

    Don’t publish this. I’m not looking for a big public fight. I’m just a Christian lady who is really worried by the way you blithely dismiss your hurting sisters.

    I understand if you can’t handle this now. Heck, I sure couldn’t! But if you can’t, YOU NEED TO STEP AWAY FROM ARGUING AND POKING AT HURTING SISTERS UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH THEM LOVINGLY!

  31. I am just shocked that someone would confide they bore bruises from the beatings of their father to you, Mrs Kelly, and your response is not concern or sympathy, but IMMEDIATELY you seek to show how the person confiding such in you is WRONG in her opinions.

    You know, maybe she is wrong. But I would bet every paltry penny of physical wealth and good fortune that I have, that arguing an ultimately meaningless and minor point about the fruit of homeschooling would NOT have been Jesus’ reaction to her story.

    I know you are about to have a baby any day now. But you are also a grown woman and a mature Christian, so I am going to presume you are not just looking to have bitter anonymous fights online, you want to help and support and encourage the growth of your sisters in Christ.

    Don’t publish this. I’m not sending it in to score points against you. I’m sending to to urge you to send poor Mrs W an email. You are a wife and a Christian with many years experience and she is absolutely crying out for Christian love. Help her.

    If you are not able to offer that, you shouldn’t be posting about such difficult topics. But don’t wimp out and tell yourself ‘oooh, I have a talent for asking questions, but not for comforting or encouraging when those questions distress or confuse my readers’. If you want to ask the questions, you need to be able to support and direct your readers.

    Don’t publish this. I’m not looking for a big public fight. I’m just a Christian lady who is really worried by the way you blithely dismiss your hurting sisters.

    I understand if you can’t handle this now. Heck, I sure couldn’t! But if you can’t, YOU NEED TO STEP AWAY FROM ARGUING AND POKING AT HURTING SISTERS UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH THEM LOVINGLY!

    With warmest thoughts,
    Claire

  32. Claire…thanks for the support. I’m to the point these days where I can go on with life and whatever. It does rub me the wrong way when people can just ignore the blatant abuse in several home schooling families saying that home schooling is the only right and Biblical way, even though there is no proof, no matter how many verses you twist.

    I have a friend who believes in home schooling only. We are great friends, and while she doesn’t agree with my husband and I not wanting to home school, she does absolutely see why we would not want to after our experiences. I appreciate her honesty to look at the issue objectively.

    I didn’t write about my experience in order to get sympathy, but in order to say that, just like in public school families, or private school families, that abuse can go on in home school families, and can be hidden so much better.

    I knew when I posted that most posters here would disagree with me. The only thing that makes me sad is that a lot of people will ignore the abuse thing because it’s not comfortable to talk about. But, you get that anywhere.

    I do appreciate the support though.

  33. I believe the church needs to be the ones that are dealing with abuse in the home. How out of touch the church is with their own! It’s not a shame on homeschooling that there are ongoing cases of abuse left undealt with, but a shame on the church. There are not too many happy, healthy results from leaving the government to do these things.

    I Corinthians 6:1-2
    “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
    Do not ye know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

  34. I wonder what Voddie thinks about verses in Romans and Corinthians mean then, if there are *no grey areas*.

    Voddie is a mere man and is not absolved from the evil of taking scripture to fit it to his philosophy (which is also his own religion). We all do it at times. We all have our own man-made relgions at times that we obey.

    The bible has principles to live by, but not all are hard, cold, fast rules and commands to obey-at least not spelled out that specifically.

    #5 Because we dont have to.

    Really? Does anyone here actually think none of us mothers here put serious thought into that, prior to sending our kids to school? Some of us even stopped homeschooling…..so it only goes to say we prayed and thought and investigated. For Voddie or anyone to claim that we abuse the saying, “Well, we prayed about it, so God has spoken”….is very judgmental.

    #4 Americas schools are worst in the industrialized world.

    Well, just like I didnt homeschool my kids anywhere near mostly for academics, I could care less if we dont test as well.

    #3 Morally repugnant-yes, the entire world is going morally repugnant, just like was prophesied in the bible. We are called to live in the world, just not be of it. Whether I homeschooled or sent my children to public school, I do not find myself to be *of* the world.

    #2-“the govt is anti-christian”….I dont see this. I see the govt perhaps as not being PRO-christian….but to say they, in every last way, are anti-christian, is extreme.

    #1…”the bible commands….” already spoke of this above.

    Voddie pleads with us to not send our children to public school this year. He really has no right to do that. I mean, he is able, and *can* do that, but I do not accept it is right and just. There is something to be said about love…..it lets go. Love allows for free will and choice. It doesnt badger and breathe down people’s necks. It allows for room. Even God does this. To keep going on and on and on about how the world doesnt conform (“esp christians”) and focusing on everyone else, and hoping it stands….is not anyone’s sole responsibility. There is a lot to be said for backing off….again, even God does this.

  35. Claire,

    With all due respect, and certainly more than you gave me, I am certainly concerned and sympathetic toward abuse. We are talking about one subject, and she used a childhood situation (to be honest, I barely caught her personal reference, and was responding mostly to what she mentioned about her SIL) to try to prove an irrelevant point. I simply pointed out the error of that connection. That doesn’t make me unsympathetic toward what happened to her. I’m sure we could all share stories of abuse and hurts from our past, but burdening me with “the wrong response” hardly seems fair.

    Some people call “marks from beatings on my body” the stripes from a spanking that wouldn’t be considered abuse. I’m not suggesting that’s Mrs. W. case; but I can’t be responsible for sorting through and counseling on a subject I know nothing of either.

    I was not at all trying to be hurtful or inconsiderate of Mrs. W. I certainly didn’t YELL at her, as you have me, and you may want to re-read my response and then yours to see if you really think I am “poking at hurting sisters”…

    I try to be very respectful and considerate of my readers here; I need to ask the same of you.

  36. Mrs Kelly, just for the record I wasn’t hurt by anything and I don’t think you have to act as a counselor either. I’m fine now. But I’m certainly not talking about just marks from a spanking. Not marks from a regular spanking, anyway. These were ones where my dad was in a rage and told me he was going to make me hurt as much as possible, and then went to find things that would make it hurt, and bruise me up. He would specifically say that. There would be bruises on my arms, and legs, and elsewhere from this…bruises that didn’t heal up in just a few days.

    I do however think that you are wrong in it being irrelevant, but you weren’t ungracious in your response or anything. It’s very relevant, it was one of the MAJOR reasons my parents had for home schooling us. They didn’t want us to tell anyone…they told us that specifically.

  37. I agree with the lady who said it is the homelife and upbringing that almost exclusively affects the child. Not public school, or homeschool. Christian schools offer ‘christina’ education, but many of those children dont have authnetic relationships with God later in life.

    My children are in school 6 hours per day…say 180 days out of 352. Thats half the year. They are home holidays, weekends, breaks, and many Mondays and Fridays. Some days they are in school they are left out early. They are also allowed to be absent 10 days, excused. They are also allowed 5 vacation days with written permission.

    Contrast this with my homeschooling days….schooled year round. Was church-crazy….so was at church 3X per week….helped at all church functions…attended all bible studies, etc. We had problems with children in homeschooling groups too….when there was a gym get together, field trip, etc. You still dont have every comfort in the world that those kids in church or your homeschooling group are brought up in decent families. A lot goes on behind closed doors, and many christians are not authentic in public. Husbands are struggling with porn, wives with love addiction and codependency and enabling….you name it.

    I spend more time with my children NOW than I did when I was homeschooling!

    Perhaps many children ‘trun away’ in college becasue they are ALLOWED to. Being brought up in a home where the child isnt allowed to try out his own “owned’ faith the way He/she needs to …..breeds rebellion, eventually. Im trying to allow my children to express their different ideas, questions, etc about God/relgion at home….that way they have had their rebellious stages before me….not waiting to get out from under me to turn away.

    I think we give public school more power than it truly holds.

    It may sound nuts…

  38. AM,

    There is lots I want to say, but for time, will refrain. Two things though…

    You said…”the govt is anti-christian”….I dont see this. I see the govt perhaps as not being PRO-christian….but to say they, in every last way, are anti-christian, is extreme.”

    The Bible is clear: “Whoever isn’t for me is against me”. If you do any amount of looking into the curriculum and PS agenda, you will find very quickly that the current is to tear down any shred of Christianity–and not only that, but morals our country has claimed for centuries. This is one of the BIG blind spots, I think, of Christian parents: there is no neutrality in education and religion. And once you get that, you are forced, biblically, to answer.

    And regarding Voddie’s having “no right to plead with us”…I would encourage you to go back and read Jeremiah (I know you don’t like the OT 😉 But the people HATED him for his pleading. God made no bones about the message either: “tell them I will utterly destroy them if they do not heed my words” (spoken through Jeremiah).

    And they didn’t think they were doing anything wrong either.

    I know this is a difficult subject, especially as we are so familiar with our PS system, and it has only slowly evolved into what it is today.

    But I would graciously ask you to think through all the admonition of Scripture about how we are to disciple our children. And honestly ask yourself if it’s possible to fulfill that mission while allowing a system that is hostile to God and Christianity to disciple them even longer during the day?

    I think it’s fair to plead when you care so much.

  39. Mrs. W.,

    I am truly sorry for such a horrible experience you had. Truly. Thank you for recognizing that I didn’t mean to just dismiss it uncompassionately. The point I was trying to make is that homeschooling isn’t to blame for the abuse; the abuse is the problem entirely, and I was trying to make that distinction. If my husband beats me, it’s not the institution of marriage that is faulty. It’s him. I think you know that, but it’s important we make clear distinctions about those things.

  40. Dear me, I never intended anyone but yourself to see that. I’m sorry about the apparent ‘yelling’ – I don’t know what happened with the capitals, or the double posting. I wrote my post in Word and tried to copy and paste it but as with most technology, I seem to be quite inept.

    Look, I feel very awkward making this point publically. I don’t feel it’s appropriate, but since you responded to me, I’ll make the point here. Please feel free to take this entirely offline.

    We are talking about one subject, and she used a childhood situation (to be honest, I barely caught her personal reference, and was responding mostly to what she mentioned about her SIL) to try to prove an irrelevant point.

    This is exactly what I’m talking about. Please just take a moment to pray about this. Somebody’s comments about their beatings is far more important about an anecdote about their SIL. It is genuinely so shocking to me that you would ‘barely catch’ such a sad and telling reference. This is the important story. This is what Jesus would catch. This is more important than ‘point scoring’ about sisters-in-law.

    You can claim you’re not obliged to ‘counsel’ hurting sisters all you want. You can minimise the impact of these stories (‘we all have them’ – I can assure you I don’t, thanks to the good will of our Lord). But you know what the true, Biblical response to such sad stories is. They’re not ‘irrelevant’. How we respond to these stories is fundamental to our Christian walk. Some day we will stand before our Lord, and He will ask us how we treated people who talked about such things. What do you think He will make of you calling them ‘irrelevant’?

    I totally agree that the medium of a blog is not always the best place to reach out to somebody – but we should do it by email if we can, and we certainly shouldn’t let these stories pass by without comment.

  41. Mrs Kelly, we DEFINITELY agree on your last point. Home schooling wasn’t what caused that stuff to happen to me. In my case though it was used as a vehicle to HIDE it, and that is wrong.

    I will be home schooling my little ones probably until first grade…unless my oldest does end up going to a special kind of private school for kids that learn like he does.

    My husband isn’t so sure about home schooling either, but he said we might really love it when we try it and so we are going to. My goal is to not have my children in public school if I can help it, at least until they get to high school and are old enough to know a few things. And even then, I’ll want them at the high school their daddy works at.

    While I get frustrated occasionally with some of your beliefs, I haven’t seen you be what I would consider “ugly” to anyone. I come to this blog because even when I don’t agree, it makes me think, and when I do agree, it is nice to FINALLY be able to read something by someone who I agree with on topics such as birth control etc.

    So anyway, while I don’t agree with everything, I do really like this blog. 🙂 And I think you are pretty nice about things.

  42. A huge concern that rose up in me after being a 3rd and 4th Grade Para many moons ago was…not all of the papers were making it home for the parents to see. Therefore the Parents didn’t know all the printed information their children were working on. 4th Grade English papers where subject matter including condoms never made it home where the Parents knew this object was a part of a grammar lesson. Pray tell why 4th grade children would need to have this be the subject matter on an English paper? Perhaps in a sex education class which usually starts in 5th, 6th and 7th grade level, but 4th grade??? Don’t think so.

    Things are done that the Parents don’t even know are going on.

    Even the Christian Teachers are expected to teach the curriculum.

    There is such a push in the school system to encourage children to embrace sexual practices of all forms. If you have young innocent chidren that have to be around those that think sexual activity of all kinds is alright what do you think will happen when certain corrupt information is introduced to the innocent? Nothing?

    Then there’s the dolphin spirit guides the children are encouraged to see the light with. Truly I’m not exaggerating or making this up.

    Once they reach High School level the students are encouraged to rebel against traditional home life where the Parents are the authoritive figures. Child: You aren’t gonna tell me what to do, I’ll report you to the Law.

    In Public Schools, the children will eat what is before them.

  43. Homeschooling is a right and a priviledge for now. A family that chooses this route of education does not have to be christian; they do not have to morally upright; and they do not have to end up with a success. Even if we do stick to the realm of only families that cry ‘christian’ – success is not guaranteed.

    Parents, and only parents, can make the choices that will produce successful, morally upstanding and socially adept children. Christian parents have the added burden (read joy) for raising children with a heart for serving God.

    Abuse happens in all situations and parents will answer for their choices and actions – whether using the public school system or not.

    My husband and I homeschool and we do so for biblical reasons. We know dozens of homeschooling famiies. We know even more families that use public schools. I can see those who are succeeding and those who are failing – and it always lands on the shoulders of the parents even when they refuse to acknowledge it. As parents, we can be ‘luke-warm’ in the manner that we raise our children – whether they are raised with home education or not.

    My goal as a parent is to never lose focus on my God-given responsibility to raise up my daughter in the ways of the Lord. For me, I could not accept the idea of a constant ‘re-programming’ of all the non-christian and even anti-God ideals that are part of public school. We do not shelter her from the real world, we educate her about it. We do not lock her up at home, we look for ways to allow experiences that include all generations, all socio-economic backgrounds and all races to be part of our lives – and then we create education out of it. That is the best part of homeschooling. Life. That doesn’t happen in public school.

  44. Kelly,

    Thanks for your blog! I have much in common with you…including our due date. I’m exhausted just from reading all of these comments, and I’m so thankful God has given you the grace to handle your critics. Thank you so much for sharing your passions on living obediently for the Lord. I pray we’ll both have time to rest up for the birth of our babies…it’s a full moon you know…so any day now right?!

  45. mrs.w I was also abused as a child I know the lasting effects and how hard I try to be nothing like my abuser.My abuser was my home schooling mother,but my true abuser was santan who hates godly families and wants to blind us to the trueth anyway he can.I spent years not wanting to even have children just incase I might become the monster my mother was.Finally God saved me/I excepted God.I gave in to my husbands diesire to have a child.I had no plans of staying home with that child or having another let alone excepting Gods will for my womb and I sure didn’t plan on homeschooling.Then I found out I was going to have twins and a few days later I miscarried the doctors wanted to do a dnc.I insisted on an ultra sound and sure enough there was one beating heart.I went home to months of bed rest.I prayed and prayed God showed me during that time an example of a wonderful home schooling family.The oklahoma boming also happened. I wept for those families who lost thier children.I also new God had called me to stay home and homeschool.I can not ever explian to you the diffrence in the way I was and the way I am. I truelly belive God wants our children out of the public school system.I belive I was abused as a child to prevent me from wanting to homeschool I belive I nearly let santan have his way.I say it all the time.I WAS BLIND BUT NOW I SEE.People who new me before tell me the diffrence in me is one of Gods greatest testimonies.I am so thankfull to my Father in heavan for opening my heart and my eyes for making me listen to his calling for my life for not letting santan steel the plan God has for my family through the pain of an abusive childhood I pray the same for you.I went to your blog and you look beautifully blessed.I pray you will have an easy end to your pregnancy.I hope you will know I am not judging you for not homeschooling.That is between you your husband and God.I just know that I am absolutly doing what God has planned for me.I am ment to be the mother to the 5 blessings God has gracously given me I am ment to be the submissive wife to my husband I am ment to homeschool my children in a loveing way.I would like to add somthing I don’t think homeschooling if you are a christian is so much about the acedemics as it is about the time it allows us to study Gods word to really spend time with God.My 2 oldest read through the bible yearly by thier selves and I do not require that of them.They have on many occasions pointed out in proper quotations of scripture thay are so much wiser than I was at thier age.God is not allowed in the public school system.I live in a very small town and thier is only one other family in my church that homeschools most of the teachers and the principil attend my church I am not doing it because people think it makes me more holy I can assure you in my community they do not they think we are weired that is fine God keeps reasurring me when I need it that what we are doing is his will.My children love being homeschooled and while I still would not send them to public school even if they did’t love it.I do belive thier love for it is one of the ways God reasures me that it is his will.

  46. My disclaimer is this: I have ten kids, all of whom I homeschooled to a point in their education. My oldest child, a daughter, was the only one who didn’t attend traditional school, but did graduate from a traditional college. Of the other nine, six of them were homeschooled, then went to a public school and graduated, and all but one, graduated from college, or are presently in college. My last two are in a Christian school, but were also homeschooled in their earlier years. Oh, and my husband is an AP and Honors Chem teacher in a public school, and my daughter teaches ASL to hearing students in a public school.

    I read over Baucham’s dissertation. I found some of it to be hyperbole, particularly in point #4. When he states that “If you really care about the stewardship of you (obviously, a typo in the article) child’s mind…” is he implying that those of us who have sent their kids to public school don’t care about our kids’ minds? Furthermore, I think it’s unfair to paint with such a broad brush. As I stated, my husband teaches AP and Honors Chem. While not all of them are stand-out science students, he has taught some brilliant (I don’t use the word casually) kids over the years. His classes aren’t full of “a bunch of imbeciles…” There are certainly students who don’t belong in the class, but that’s a far cry from Baucham’s description. While we’re on the topic of needing remedial work, have you read some of the blogs of parents who homeschool? I think that if you’re going to tout homeschooling as the best way to educate, then you probably should know how to write using proper syntax, grammar and mechanics, and be able to spell and abbreviate words like “etc.” It isn’t “ect.” I am not being critical (I promise), but if you’re going to homeschool, your kids should be taught as well, or better, then they would be if they attended public school. As believers, our aim should be excellence. Homeschooled kids should be reading classics (Paul quoted the philosophers), and being taught consistently. Of course, learning the Bible is absolutely imperative (my husband and I talk about God, His Word and righteousness constantly to our kids), but the other subjects are important, too. I read Jasmine Baucham’s blog, and she’s a bright girl, who’s obviously been taught well, so I’m not implying that all homeschoolers are bereft of good minds.

    Moreover, while Baucham doesn’t overtly advocate homeschooling, I think that is certainly something that you can read between the lines. Obviously, given the comments, others think so, as well. Many homeschooling families believe that it is sin if you don’t homeschool your kids. I recently had an opportunity to read Nathan Busentiz’s (he is one of the pastors at Grace Community Church where John MacArthur pastors) thoughts on the matter, and found his arguments cogent and compelling. He writes that Edersheim, in his book about Jewish life in Jesus’ time, states that children were usually taught formally in the synagogue, not at home.

    My thoughts are convoluted, scattered, and less than cohesive, and I apologize for that. Please allow me to close with two questions: Do you consider it sin not to homeschool? Secondly, where were children in the Bible educated?

    Cathy

  47. Kelly,

    If you were sure about your faith you would not care if you lived among pagans, for instance. If you’re afraid you’ll lose your children to the world by sending them to school, then your faith and theirs is very, very weak. My faith was never challenged by school or university. I live in a country where the majority of the population is Christian, but even so, the odd atheist or agnostic has never bothered me. In fact, I lived for 18 years with a very outspoken and offensive agnostic bordering on atheism – my grandfather. His constant rants against religion, church and the divine nature of Christ have only strengthned my faith and the faith of my mother.
    As usual, your logic concerning the so-called Biblical requirements to homeschool is absured. You take a verse out of the Bible, out of its context, and you apply it to everything you want. First of all, in Biblical times there was no equivalent of public schools, as we know them today, so you can’t compare the education of children then vs. now. And if you take the verse “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” and apply it to everything, then we should not evangelize, reach out to unbelievers, etc. This mentality is what caused religious persecutions in the past. Christianity is not an “us versus them” religion. Our goal is to gain souls for Christ, not to reject them and to hide away from non-Christians. I also think this mentality of yours is extremely dangerous because it creates animosity and conflict between different Christian denominations. For instance, I’m a Christian and a feminist and I see no contradiction in terms. In fact, I believe Christ was a liberator of women who treated them in a manner unheard of by the patriarchs of the time. I also believe in and pray to saints and especially the Holy Virgin Mary, who has supreme grace. I believe that God knows what road each of us will take, but I do not believe He predestines us. I do not believe that eternal salvation occurs at the moment a person feels convicted in his faith in Christ, nor do
    I believe that faith alone leads to eternal salvation, nor that once a Christian feels convicted in his faith, then his eternal salvation can never be lost. I strongly believe prayers for the dead are necessary, likewise prayers to the saints. I believe in the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ. To sum it up, Kelly, we are both Christian and yet our beliefs radically differ in just about everything except in our belief in Christ as our Saviour. Also, I profoundly disagree with your views on women, men, education, modesty, politics, the role that Christians should play in the world. With that in mind, would you socialize with my family? Would you let your children play with mine? Or am I a part of the world which you’re so anxious to avoid and “protect” your children from? Bearing in mind that we would probably offend your sensibility by the way we dress:) You would probably consider my clothes immodest while I consider them elegant, feminine, fashionable and sexy:)) I’d really appreciate it if you answered my questions.

  48. I have not experienced my children being taught about differing sexual practices, dolphin spirit guides….and other things. My children have told me that there is no animosity experienced when they talk about God. I know this doesnt mean the schools are PRO-God, of course….but my children at large have not been criticized for their faith. My 14 year old daughter has said that evolution ISNT ‘pushed’….and her one art project was about Christ, and she got an A on it. I know these things dont showcase the other points concerning public schools….but I often hear stories here and there and everywhere, but I think perhaps they are solitary stories….not the norm found in public school. For every evil story, there is a beautiful one. Again, not saying this means public school is flawless….

    I like one point that Alix made (actually a few, but will only speak of this one), and that is about perhpas an exaggerated fear keeping us segregated from non/unbelievers. I used to measure everything. I had so much fear about losing my faith/not pleasing God that I almost became paralyzed….not allowing my children around someone who smoked, for instance. The way i lived was carefully calculated. But eventually it drove me crazy and away from the world at large. Today I can be in many situations and not fear that I or my children will forever be spiritually tainted from it.

    I also see that I have been “saved by grace, not of myself, lest than I boast”. To live or act like I have something to do with my salvation is boastful. God did this for me…yes I responded, but I can only even respond due to his immeasureable grace. All unsaved people are not necessarily outright against us. When I was an unbeliever, I didnt hate christians….didnt wholeheartedly believe in evolution….etc. I just wasnt fully aware at the time, and some of that is in Gods providence, not mine. I also dont think I have to ‘witness’ to unbelievers like some might think we are to; making disciples to me implies to grow one another….you cannot disciple someone who is not saved, really. WE are to tell things Jesus has done, and in the moment when the spirit makes me aware, I do do that. But I do not take on the responsibility of having to change the world…I know this was not spoken of in the OP, but it is where my mind leads me; I tend to resonate with Alix’s point about staying away from ‘pagans’ due to fear….

    Monika

    Granted

  49. Wow, Kelly, anyone would think you’ve never posted your thoughts on this before! Take it easy! Well, as much as you can… 🙂

  50. Cathy,

    Well, it does seem this thread keep reverting back to homeschooling…”I think that if you’re going to tout homeschooling as the best way to educate”…though Dr. Baucham never mentioned it.

    (Can I mention too, holding a homeschooling parent to the standard of “no typos” on a blog where we are all thinking/typing fast is a little much to me.)

    Anyway, no, I don’t think it is a sin not to homeschool. I do think we are responsible for providing our children with a solid Christian education, and I think it is ideal if parents are the ones who disciple their children each day.

    In Bible times, and I would have to study more to be sure of this, school was very short, both in hours of day and days of the year, and the “curriculum” was staunchly biblical (mostly students copied and memorized the Bible). We have nothing that resembles that type of education. Most homeschooling parents don’t even offer that level of biblical learning.

    Does that answer?

  51. Alix,

    You say “my children’s faith is weak”…yes it is! They are spiritual babies right now and it is our job to strengthen them and saturate them with the teaching of God, looking at the world through a spiritual lens, until they are mature and ready to “take it on” themselves. That is our job.

    For some reason, people have a hard time distinguishing between “hiding away from the world” (which we do NOT do) and making wise choices about who our closest companions/mentors are.

    We are in the world, constantly. That does not mean I am supposed to place my children under the instruction of an anti-Christian program and in a situation where most of their choices of close friends will be “fools”. (Psalm 1) (The Bible talks extensively about “not walking with fools”…different from “reaching the lost”…very different.)

    When a child is given to me, I am to be his steward; he belongs to God and it is up to us to fulfill the principles of Scripture regarding discipleship. Jesus’ own example with his disciples is an excellent one. They were in the world, but he walked right along side them every step.

    As far as our differences…(BTW, yes, Jesus WAS the greatest liberator of women…but he would hate the current feminist movement 😉

    If you dress in a way that would cause my husband and/or children to stumble, and you are a Christian, the Bible is CLEAR about that. I just read it this morning!

    “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you”…(remember that we are commanded to dress modestly and be chaste (that is the opposite of *sexy*), and that if we cause our brother to stumble it is sin…looking upon a woman with lust is adultery…put it all together.) “And you have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you….purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump…(Paul is actually instructing the Christians to “put this one out of the assembly”…I wrote to you not to keep company with sexually immoral people. (Dressing immodestly qualifies.)…Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral of this world, since then you would need to go out of the world. But I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother/sister who is sexually immoral…” Ouch. Paul said it, not me.

    Clear enough? A true Christian doesn’t willfully dress “sexy” if he has read Scripture at all. You will know them by their fruits. I guess I would assume you were not a Christian and consider you someone to evangelize 😉

    You can hear Paul’s voice in this passage, saying, “Duh people, how many times do have to explain this?”

    We don’t like to equate immodest dress with “immorality” but there’s no way to get around it from Scripture.

    See we don’t like that at all. Christians actually being held accountable for their practical life choices and behavior? Yep.

    Don’t know if I really answered you, I’m trying to be very objective and rely on God’s Word for answers.

  52. AM,

    I suppose if I didn’t appear to be insane, sometimes I feel like standing on a roof and shouting “WE DON’T FEAR PAGANS, NOR DO WE TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM THEM!” 😉

    But I realize I can’t intellectually discuss this point with those who dismiss/reinterpret the “two-edged sword of the Word” that carefully defines how we are to live in the world, particularly regarding our children.

    So I’ll throw my hands up on this one.

  53. Kelly,

    The remark about the way my family and I dress was intended to be funny. Sorry if it didn’t come out as I intended. What I wanted to say is that we are almost opposite in our approach to faith and life. I don’t want to get into a controversial topic, but I’m tired of women being always blamed for men who lust after them. How about men? Are they ever blamed for, let’s say, dressing in tight t-shirts and pants? Does anyone suggest they cover themselves in shapeless sacks ( aka modest dress) Let’s admit that women lust after men just as much as men lust after women, and it doesn’t have much to do with clothes. A beautiful woman will always attract men, no mother what she’s wearing. Actually, I’m proud of my looks. I’ve always been considered beautiful and complimented for my fashion sense and looks by men and women alike. And I don’t think women should dress like prostitutes either, but there’a a huge difference between what you and me consider appropriate clothes. Let’s forget about clothes. What I actually wanted to know is if you would socialize with me and my family or if we are dangerous by your standards. Don’t worry, it’s only hypothetical, since I live in Europe.

  54. Kelly,

    A typo? I’m not sure to what you’re referring.

    When I said, “If you’re going to tout homeschooling…” I was referring to a general “you’re,” not to Baucham. If homeschooling is to be touted as a better way to educate, I think it would behoove the community of homeschooling blogs to spell and write correctly. If you’re referring to my example of “etc.,” (and every time it’s used on a particular blog, it’s spelled the same way), that is one minor example. From my perspective (and, remember, I homeschooled all of my kids for varying lengths of time), it gives a bad name to homeschooling when some writers of homeschooling blogs have trouble stringing a cogent sentence together, or spell words correctly.

    I found your answer to the sin question interesting. There are some within the homeschooling community who would contend that it is sin if you don’t homeschool your kids. While I enjoy reading the writers of those blogs, and we’re somewhat on the same page theologically (Reformed–Calvinistic in nature), some of them are adamantly opposed to anything but homeschooling. If that is what they believe, i.e., that it is sin to do otherwise, then, by all means, that is what they should practice.

    Cathy

  55. Alix,
    I know tone is hard to convey over the ‘net, but as a fellow Catholic, I have to gently take issue with yours.
    Why not let Kelly have the liberty to choose to have her own opinion on government schools and the amount of interaction she wants her children to have with other people? You don’t have to agree with her, and you have the same liberty.

    I don’t think it’s Kelly’s faith that’s in question- but that of her young, still-developing children that she wants to protect until they are old enough and strong enough to stand on their own.

    Don’t forget that the parochial school system in America was begun for similar reasons- Catholic bishops wanted to protect the faith of Catholic schoolchildren exposed to the blatantly Protestant teachings of the public school systems of the times- back when Christianity was allowed in public schools.

    And before you object to her stand about modesty, you might want to consider this:
    2521. Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
    2522. Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires ones choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is descreet. (italics CM)
    2523. There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body…. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

    It seems that Kelly and the Catechism are in agreement.:)

    I guess my question is: why so defensive? I have the same doctrinal differences that you do with some of her beliefs, but unlike a lot of places on the web, Kelly is not attacking you and your faith personally. Nor do I find her way of expressing herself offensive.
    Why not just take away whatever is useful and let the rest go?

    Kelly, feel free to not publish this if you would prefer to give your own answer.
    Prayers for you and the baby.

  56. Alix,

    Predestination is a Biblical concept. There’s no getting around it. I encourage you to check out Romans 8. To say that you don’t believe something that is clearly Biblical is curious. Have you studied the passages that refer to election and predestination? If God doesn’t predestine us, what do those passages mean?

    Don’t want to get too far afield since this isn’t my blog.

    Cathy

  57. I’m a slow typist, so I see Kelly and Alix got in ahead of me.
    Glad we all got that sorted out- and sorry if I sounded preachy.

  58. Alix, I think you’re confusing being attractive and cultivating beauty, with being sexually titillating in dress and fashion.
    “A beautiful woman will always attract men, no mother what she’s wearing.”
    Quite right. Many women in the Bible, Sarah comes to mind, were known for remarkable beauty. Sarah was certainly not blamed for inciting desire in the Pharoh’s heart. He was judged for it. As I recall, Nathan did not go chastize Bathsheba, but David for HIS sin. What’s judged is what’s cultivated and the sin in the heart – with credit (blame) to whom credit is due, so to speak. So no, women are not “always blamed for men who lust after them.”

    “The women of Zion are haughty,
    walking along with outstretched necks,
    flirting with their eyes,
    tripping along with mincing steps,
    with ornaments jingling on their ankles.”
    -Is. 3:16

    It’s not about what she wears but why, and the way. To incite desire.

    To reiterate, it’s *not* always the woman’s fault, and it’s not just about what she’s wearing. But a woman does need to take responsibility for what she’s inciting, if it’s by immodest clothing – within reason of course, no need for a burkah – or a “shapeless sack.” A woman CAN do this without going to extremes. A woman can cultivate beauty and modesty.

    And yes, a man should be modest as well, and make an effort not to cultivate a sexually arousing style. He too can do this without a “shapeless sack.”

    Frankly there’s no excuse for a “shapeless sack” anywhere as far as I’m concerned. :)Unless that’s all someone can afford I guess.

  59. btw, I get that you were using hyperbole, but you chose that example for a reason, and while I don’t know why, you chose it therefore I addressed it. I personally think it’s a “straw man.”

  60. Alix,

    Before we leave the topic of clothing…I can’t dismiss your comment about modest dress–“shapeless sacks ( aka modest dress)”…NO ONE HERE has ever suggested this ridiculous definition of modest dress. People use it, I think, to justify their immodest dress. One can be perfectly fashionable and beautiful and shapely, without being immodest.

    Are men to be held responsible? Of course! That too, is an absurd assumption. Guess what? I am a woman, instructed to teach other women. I cannot teach men. So just because I admonish a woman to dress modestly (she DOES have a very real obligation to keep others from stumbling), doesn’t alleviate any man’s responsibility to guard his heart. Nor is it an excuse, though, to dress the way we want–that is unloving.

    Of course we would socialize with your family. That’s what so funny about assumptions people make…we socialize with all sorts of people…different lifestyles, Christian/non-Christian, people with drug addictions, homosexuals, etc….

    We don’t hide away…I just don’t believe the Bible instructs me to send my children into the world unattended yet.

  61. Great post, and interesting conversation. I’m thinking, “Train up a child in the way he shall go and when he is old he will not depart from it.” (Proverbs 22:6)

    As a homeschooling parent, I am 100% responsible for how my kids turn out, because my husband and I do all the raising. By sending my kids to someone else to raise (at school) I would be taking a big risk. 50% of their awake time would be spent with someone of different values, leading my child in a different direction.

    Of course, it is possible to overcome, but it is rare. And yes, ungodly homeschooling parents will raise ungodly children, that is for sure. But if you are a godly parent, with a desire to raise godly children, I don’t see why you would risk letting your kids be raised by others, especially others with such different views from yours.

  62. I haven’t read all of the latest posts, but I want to point out that abuse is pervasive in the PS and I Christian schools. I have personally experienced both.

    In public school it is very bad. I couldn’t walk to my history class, at the end of a long hallway, without being groped or grabbed.

    Being the enrollment director of our homeschool group, I personally know THREE young ladies who were raped in school. These crimes were covered and never brought to justice. For this most part, home-educating families are in the mind frame of protecting their children.

    BTW, this school is in a great middle- upper middle class lake community.

    I don’t fully understand why this is a point of discussion amoung this circle of blog readers. Abusers are out their in all realms- homeschooling, public schooling, ect.

    BUT, believe it or not, there are many (the great majority) Christian homeeducating families out there who DO NOT abuse their children and truly work hard at all cost to make a godly home for their children. These are the families that Dr. Baucham is speaking to.

    If a reader here thinks they may be abusive to their children, by all means get help. I don’t think that is likely the case here on this blog. Most of Kelly’s readers are parents who though not perfect, strongly desire God’s best for their children and will go against the grain to achieve this goal.

    In other words, I am thinking that this is a non-issue in THIS circle.

    Misty

  63. Kelly – “NO ONE HERE has ever suggested this ridiculous definition of modest dress.”

    This unfortunately seems to be a recurring theme in the commentaries – taking an insinuation or assertion picked up somewhere else – someone else’s blog, or article, or personal conversation – and acting like you’re associated, it was your idea. In topics like biblical submission, or biblical education, or biblical modesty, or biblical ideas about family planning YOU are *apparently* responsible for the exaggerations of interpretation, no matter how closely you stick to the biblical text.

    And of course, if someone really wants to dismiss you or your point, they can just remind you that you’re pregnant (like that’s relevant).

  64. I’m confused by a theme I see hear – what is wrong, exactly, with protecting young people from overexposure to “culture”? Sorry, but you can’t send them to a place for ten hours a day that doesn’t even allow the mention of moral behavior and expect that they’re not influenced adversely. That’s like saying – oh, I work in a strip club ten hours a day, but I’m a great person and strong Christian so it really shouldn’t affect my spirit or my witness – not that you can’t be a Christian and work in a strip club, but is it really a good idea? What about the lack of excellence demanded of the teachers and the students – Cathy, I’m sure your husband is fabulous, but I’d be willing to bet there are teachers in his own department, and throughout his school, who shouldn’t be there, and he’s told you as much – He sounds like the kind of man and you the kind of mom who could teach in two hours what it takes public school two days to accomplish (this is a compliment, sorry if it seems backhanded), so I can’t see the benefit of sending them there. Public schools teach to an irrelevant set of standardized tests that have nothing to do with a measure of any actual learning. And since we (participants in this discussion)seem to agree that government run schools are usually out of line with even marginally Christian beliefs, how are we doing our “best” by sending our children to them? Unapologetically, it’s an issue of what we WANT to do, be it the best or not. I am baffled that presented with all evidence to the contrary, how we justify to ourselves that public school is EVER the best.

    And I think we should be careful, accusing those who are convicted to speak out with passion on this issue, of dealing in extremes and hyperbole. Some things are worthy of our vehemence. Our children, for one.

  65. Cottage Child,

    It is hyperbole to paint with a broad brush–a class of “imbeciles” is painting with a wide swath. Was there no one in the class who wasn’t an imbecile? That’s hyperbole.

    I think that you created a straw man with your statement about children, vehemence and passion. I didn’t impugn motive, not did I question anyone’s love/passion for their children, or for the subject matter. Because one is passionate doesn’t mean that they aren’t ever be given to hyperbole. Those two traits aren’t mutually exclusive. Does it mean that I’m less passionate about my kids because they’ve gone to public school?

    Of course, there are teachers in the classroom who shouldn’t be there. As an aside, though, my husband has never told me about a teacher he knows that isn’t a good teacher. If you knew my husband, you would understand why. He is a first-class gentleman who minds his own business, and just wants to do his job well. However, given your example, I would submit that there are parents who shouldn’t homeschool, as well, or teachers in a Christian school who can’t teach, either, so this isn’t just a public school issue.

    I guess I’m baffled (your word) why it is so troubling for you that others who love Jesus send their kids to public school. I guess that I just don’t see how my sending my kids to public school affects your life in any way.

    Cathy

  66. Sorry, I just read Emily’s comment, and want to respond. As parents, we are not 100% responsible for how our kids turn out. If that is the premise, then how does one explain kids who follow God, despite poor teaching at home?It is our job to train our kids to follow hard after God, and it is up to God to give positive results (or not). The one thing that we CANNOT do as parents is to change hearts. That is completely a supernatural work for which God–alone–is responsible. As parents, we do our best, but leave the outcome to God. I can guarantee nothing. No Christian parent can even guarantee that their kids will all be believers. If kids turn out well, it is no credit to sinful parents.

    Cathy

  67. Cathy

    We are 100% accountable for our children while they’re in our charge – spiritually, legally, physically, in all things – and all parents are sinful, and God sees fit to use us anyway, whether our children turn out “well” or otherwise. You’re right, we can’t change their hearts, which is why it’s a good idea to keep them away from decidedly un-Chrisian influences as much as possible. It’s easier to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble. I have a problem, frankly, with parents who seem to imply that “well, only God really knows they’re hearts” – my husband saw this attitude frequently as a police officer, from parents who’s kids weren’t exactly angels,but it’s no less troubling coming from parents who suggest they’re absolved, somehow, of Biblical parenting because somehow God’s Mystery may mean for our kids to be rotten… That God is good in spite of poor parenting, or that not all kids with spiritually right parents follow God, doesn’t absolve any of us of our responsibilities as set forth in The Word.

  68. Cottage Child,

    There is a vast difference in the words “responsible” and “accountable.” I’m not sure that I follow your point. What I wrote never suggested that we are somehow “absolved” from our “responsibilities as set forth in The Word.”

    I Corinthians 15:33 warns that “Bad company ruins good morals.” Since we understand that, we don’t let our kids hang w/just anyone–whether they claim to be a Christian or not.

    I actually wrote a lengthy response to your earlier missive, but it hasn’t shown up yet.

    I will, though, repeat a line that I wrote in that one, specifically to you. How does my sending my kids to public school affect your life in any way?

    BTW, praise God, as of today, all my kids are faithfully following Jesus, are active in ministry and in raising their kids in a Godly manner. That, however, is attributable to a great God, who, in spite of sinful parents, has graciously granted to them not only salvation, but has given them a heart that desires Him.

    Cathy

    PS Kelly, perhaps the “stress (I use the word loosely)” of reading all these comments will be just the thing you need to bring on the pain!

  69. Gosh, Cathy, what I wrote was hardly meant to be a missive, perhaps I should have used a lot more question marks…I’m curious in light of the failings of our public school system, morally and academically, how can it be deemed “best” for children? (any child)

    As far as how it affects me personally, your children going to public school, it doesn’t, in all likelihood. That wasn’t my point.

    And,yes, “Praise God”, right back at you that your children have hearts for Christ. I am certainly NOT questioning your faith or theirs. If I gave that impression, I’m very sorry.

    And sorry to be disjointed, but the point of my last statement was that, in fact, accountability and responsibility are very different. It’s been my experience that not everyone understands or believes that to be the case, particularly with regard to children.

  70. Cathy, I am really sorry I’ve made you so angry – I had no idea I was so out of line, and I apologize to ANYONE here who was offended by anything I said/wrote, especially Kelly (sorry!) I don’t back down from confrontation, but it’s not my style to be rude. Nor do I create strawmen, nor do I pretend to be instructive when I really just want to rant. If I want to rant, I say so. Just me.

    Funny, though, I only addressed things you brought up, never that I homeschool, never that I thought Christian schools were perfect, either. I stand by my statement, however, that when better alternatives are at hand, we CHOOSE to send our children to public school, anyway, because we want to.

    I sure don’t remember questioning your husbands character nor your intelligence, nor your love for your children,in fact I think I complimented you on all three – yet you seem to be questioning all of those things, with regard to me and mine. Have I missed something? Now I’m really baffled.

  71. As tends to happen in homeschool vs government school debates, it appears there are multiple dynamics here which complicate the issue. I believe that the three main points here are
    1. The definition and purpose of education.
    2. The role of parents and
    3. The role of government in the lives of citizens
    Unless we all have the same understanding of definitions, there will probably always be disagreement even amongst believers.

    Not everyone defines “education” in precisely the same way. And it appears that some commenters believe there is a division between “secular” (reading, writing, etc) and “sacred (religious training)” while others believe there is no separation and so the entire educational process must necessarily be one which centers on God. The former group will naturally approach the topic of education from a different angle than will the latter. Is that a fair statement?

    I’ll be up front and state that I have come to believe there is no separation for me as a believer. While I fully understand that I am not the one who saves my kids, I agree with those who have said that we have been given a trust to guard. My husband and I are not interested in gambling with our children’s spiritual well-being by handing off their training to another. But I’m not wanting to debate as I understand God works on each of us in different ways–at different times–and under different circumstances.

    I posted the following a while back on a different blog and added a few thoughts here:

    “Educate”: to bring up, as a child; to instruct; to inform and enlighten the understanding; to instill into the mind principles of arts, science, morals, religion and behavior. To educate children well is one of the most important duties of parents and guardians. (Webster’s Dictionary 1828 ed)

    “Educate”: to provide with knowledge or training, especially through formal schooling; teach (the ‘new and up to date’ Houghton Mifflin American Heritage Student Dictionary 1998 ed)

    Not only has the commonly understood meaning of education been altered, but the formerly assumed duty of the “parent or guardian” has been somehow transferred to being a state-level concern. (Some people refer to this as “nanny-statism” or government as God). With this shift, the government has taken upon itself to not only determine which arts and sciences are appropriate for study but also has actively influenced which moral standards, religious beliefs and behaviors are acceptable.

    I find it interesting that even though many US citizens have adopted the second “modern” definition of education, our government leaders apparently have retained the earlier meaning and have taken it upon themselves to play the role of “parent”.

    The effect becomes not “education under parental direction” but rather “*indoctrination* (instruction of a person in the doctrines of beliefs of a particular group) according to a government mandate”. I say indoctrination because that education effectually accomplishes regardless of who is doing the teaching. And parents who attempt to train their children in a manner which is outside of the “approved societal standard” are often accused of “indoctrinating” the children in a damaging way.

    While the visible complaint about homeschooling is often that the “quality” of the home education is lacking (and sometimes this is true), my observation is that the underlying concern is more frequently the content.

    The argument surfaces that “parents are incapable of providing adequate ‘education'”. But the reality is that the only reason parents are “unqualified” is that there is a real possibility that they will fail to train their children to fit into the “approved” mold of society.
    (Please note that I am not talking about “homeschool” as a cover for obviously illegal/immoral activity such as abuse and neglect. Such people should be held accountable for their actions and there is greater concern for their “qualification” to even be parents)

    Copied from http://terrysoapbox.blogspot.com/2009/06/real-vs-pseudo-education.html

  72. Cottage Child,

    Now I’m the one who is completely confused. Did I appear angry?

    With regard to my husband, I was merely responding to the notion that my husband knows of teachers in “his own department” who shouldn’t be teaching. That’s just not his style to critique their teaching. There was no intimation on my part to suggest that you were capricious. I’m confused by your response.

    A “missive” is a written communication. No harm in that.

    My point is simply in response to what Baucham wrote with regard to public schools. The thread naturally went to the issue of home schooling, and I responded to that topic. When Emily stated that parents are 100% responsible for how their kids turn out, I disagreed, and stated so.

    There is no vitriol nor animus on my part. I wasn’t the least bit angry. I’m sorry if I came across that way. I don’t think that I did, but perhaps it did to you, and for that, I apologize.

    Cathy

  73. We’ve done our own discernment about homeschooling, but this thread encourgaged me to seek the scriptures again on this topic.

    There’s nothing there that mandates that we homeschool. Period. Individuals may interperet scripture in such a way that homeschooling is best for them–as shown by many enthusiastic commenters here–but it is not mandated. There is here, as in many things, freedom for individual families to make the right decision in their own situations.

    To equate all public school educations to throwing children to the wolves is hyperbole, and this minister is very good at this sort of overstatement on these topics. Yet again, this throws much more heat than light as evidenced by the frenetic comments.

    PS: When Christians homeschool in a sloppy way, as I so often see, it is a very poor witness to the world and to others in the faith and it does the children far more harm than good. The incumbent risks–of pride, self righteousness, of lack of accountability, of a Pharisee-like attitude–are very dangerous also.

  74. madge,

    ***
    There’s nothing there [Bible] that mandates that we homeschool***

    No one said this. It’s about whether the government system is appropriate for Christians and their children.

    I agree with you on your last paragraph, although defining “homeschool in a sloppy way” is tricky…

    Satan seeks whom he may devour; if can’t get us one way, he’ll try another. Many homeschoolers have fallen prey to pride; then again, haven’t we all had our share since pride seems to really be the root of all evil 😉

    That said, someone may think we are “sloppy homeschoolers” because we don’t follow as strict a schedule or regime than “the system”; while my focus on education may be much more centered on teaching the Word of God to my children, or practical living skills, or relationships, with a “minor” on book work. Hypothetical, I’m just pointing out that it’s the freedom of parents to choose how they define education and those looking in are not readily able to define whether it’s being done poorly.

    I guess this is one more “gripe” I have with a system trying to define what an education is, and sadly, most of us have adopted their definition and therefore can be very critical of homeschoolers who don’t “fit the mold”.

    I still can’t deny that when I read all of Scripture and fully understand our responsibility to *disciple* our children, I have a hard time reconciling that command with any educational choice that separates me from them for most of the day, and places their mentoring into the hands of another. And that doesn’t touch the influences we’ve discussed here.

  75. Wow. It amazes and elludes me how christians completely gloss over the fact that gov’t education is funded by theft. Did anyone here address this quote from V.B.?

    “Moreover, the system itself is funded by virtual theft. Homeowners are forced under threat of the loss of their property to pay for the education of other people’s children. How is that appropriate? The government tells everyone that they have to send their children to school, then tells homeowners that they are going to be the ones to foot the bill whether they like it or not. Not only is this a form of welfare, it is also a form of theft.”

    Whether or not I ever even have children, I have to help pay for public, statist education.

    Even IF you think the morality of gov’t edu is debateable (that is, if you are willing to suggest/debate that it’s a morally acceptable choice), I don’t. The fact that I have to finance it is an example of theft – by majority vote.

  76. Kelly,
    You are free to do whatever you like with my comment. I guess it pretty much exhausts my part in this conversation—

    Take care,
    h

  77. Lori,

    Thanks for bringing that up. I think the majority has been so brainwashed though (another lovely perk of gov. ed.) that we don’t even *see* socialism in this regard, or we believe it is right and good. Now you have to convince people that forced funding is “not OK” 😉

  78. Kelly – ” Now you have to convince people that forced funding is “not OK” ”

    Well, I’m not feeling too optimistic here. Because apparently even God wasn’t convincing enough when He wrote “Thou shall not steal.” (did you notice the period at the end of the command?)

    This theft is downright mafioso-esque. Because someone else thinks that gov’t whatever is a good thing, they vote that I pay for it (like it or not, that’s what majority vote does), the gov’t goons come loom large to make sure I do what the majority says is a good thing – according to their vote.

  79. Okay, I couldn’t resist commenting on Lori’s statement. I understand the concept of state-sanctioned robbery but I guess I have a little different view of the point where the “theft” occurs.

    In Matthew 22, the Jews who wanted to trap Jesus approached Him about having to pay tribute. Because of the understanding that paying the money meant acknowledging Caesar as god, the Jews would have categorized paying tax money as participating in idolatry.

    Jesus asked them who’s picture was on the coin and said if Caesar wants back what is his, then give it to him (He didn’t qualify that by adding “give it back if you agree with the way Caesar spends it). But He also said to give to God what is rightfully His.

    I can’t say I am a bit happy with how our government handles our tax money. Because each properly registered citizen is counted as an active participant in our government, I do feel obligated to speak up via the voting process. Keeping silent when one has the opportunity to speak about wrongness is not much different than open agreement, IMO
    But Christ’s kingdom on this earth is not yet fully realized and Satan is very busy. So, I have to accept that godless people will tend to do evil things with their available resources– And God will hold them accountable.

    In contrast:
    Psalm 127: Behold! Children are an inheritance of Jehovah; the fruit of the womb is His reward.
    Civil government is not mentioned as a player anywhere in this short Psalm–but God is and so are the parents. According to God, children are not “wards of the state” regardless of government claims to the contrary. The point where the government tries to usurp parental responsibility to God is the place where it has overstepped it’s proper bounds.

  80. Heather, thanks for bringing up a good point: “Render unto Ceasar…”

    “[A]s citizens of the United States, we do not live under Caesar! This may come as a shock to Christians, but it’s true. In principle we are to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar only when we define our “Caesar.” We live under the Constitution of the United States at the federal level in which we have multiple freedoms, including the right, according the First Amendment, “to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” That means that we do not have to settle for “pay your taxes.” We can complain, debate, and vote out of office those who are abusing their office and violating the Constitution. The Jews living under political oppression had no way to “redress their grievances” since they did not have a political voice. We do.
    Third, the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution informs us that “the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.” This clearly states that the Constitution is a document of delegated limited powers. If legislators enact laws and create programs that they do not have the constitutional right to do, then they are in violation of their oath. If they pass tax laws to pay for these unconstitutional programs, then they are stealing. We still have to pay our taxes, but they are still stealing.” – Gary DeMar

    Using the Power of Civil Government to Steal
    http://www.americanvision.org/article/using-the-power-of-civil-government-to-steal/

    (Love the title of this article!)

  81. Heather – my “render unto Caesar” response coming (I guess).

    “The point where the government tries to usurp parental responsibility to God is the place where it has overstepped it’s proper bounds.”

    I certainly agree with this!

  82. Very spirited comments going on here. One of the perks to reading Kelly’s blog.

    Mrs. June Fuentes has written a
    Thursday, July 9th post
    on her site: proverbs14verse1.blogspot.com
    about IF NOT YOU…THEN WHO?

    Kelly, have you read this?

    When the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the deception that we have believed as alright and leads us to the truth about the shortcomings of ungodly living as well as to bless us with conviction that God’s ways are higher than man’s…we can live a more EXCELLENT way.

  83. I’m interestedly awaiting you comment, Lori. For the record, I’m not trying to argue. Because our government structure is different from that of Jesus time (ie, personal action and participation), I can see how people can draw the line at different points.

    I also understand that it is possible to take on an attitude of indifference and thereby contribute to the corruption by not caring enough to speak up.

    We each need to be prayerfully checking our consciences against scripture and doing what God has instructed as we ask for His wisdom

  84. I agree that we should probably not be forced to pay for the govt schooling. With charter schools, at least the public schools have to give up around $8,000 or $9,000 to the charter schools each time a student transfers out of public school, to charter, or cyber-charter. The No Child Left Behind Act has put into place a safeguard to notify parents when the school their child attends tests lower than standard, and must offer that child transportation to another school in the district of their choice. Yes, Im sure that does little to solve the *bigger* looming issues, but it is something. Even the schools themselves, and administration get annoyed with the system.

    A solution would be to only make those who attend public school to foot the bill, but from what I understand the educational system is so in debt…aint never gonna happen. So its messy….complicated.

    I will say one thing, regarding homeschoolling vs. public school. I do think that for the most part, there are more children brought up in ignorance/unawareness that my children go to school with, regarding morality. But, on the other hand, I dont necessariuly think these other children are somehow more *evil* than my own children. My own children have been taught manners, some home education, and social restraints tend to keep my children in line. But my children have deep-rooted issues as well….just like any other normal, fallen human being. Whether homeschool or public school or charter or christian, i see about the same number from each ‘institution’ produce truly Godly kids. There are good parents in each bunch…..and bad in each bunch. Equipped, and ill-equipped. Ok, I guess Ill give homeschoolers a slightly higher percentage of well-trained children….and public school the higher extreme of terribly-trained children. But in general, even churched kids have such frightening issues. heck, church adults have frightening issues. I know *I* do!

  85. Heather – “I’m interestedly awaiting you comment, Lori. For the record, I’m not trying to argue.”

    Thanks. I had a link in there, so I guess that sent it to the spam folder. You’re so sweet! I appreciate that you want to clarify your intentions to me. You’re always pretty diplomatic though, so I wasn’t thinking that. I always look forward to your responses. Even when I disagree, you’re an example of how to conduct oneself online – an example I need to try to emulate more often! 🙂

  86. Hi Cathy – if we’re only disagreeing, we can do that all day long and still be friends. I haven’t reread, but I’m certainly prone to misunderstanding today as I’m packing my garage in 974 degree heat – all hyperbole and exaggeration intended, emphasis added. Apologies, again, if I’ve offended.

    Lori, I think you’re on to something with the misunderstanding of “Caesar”….there’s a time element there also, with regard to public education, that makes it clear the demand for our children is not merely for academic education.

  87. Thanks for the article, Lori. I remember DeMar’s “God and Government” from my senior HS year.

    Honestly, I don’t disagree with anything he (or you) said. I absolutely believe that our form of government allows for us to be able to have a say and possibly even change the status quo. I believe it is wrong for our elected officials to be abusing and re-interpreting the Constitution because they consider it to be “outdated” or irrelevant. And I do not believe “majority opinion” trumps God’s Word as to what is moral.

    At the moment, we have what we have and must pay taxes under duress. The legally mandated channels for us to be heard seem to have been short-circuited and current laws (right or wrong) require certain things of us as citizens, so I try to obey the laws (which do not contradict God’s)as well as I can even as I attempt to still use the provided means to make myself heard.

    I personally am in danger of making the issue of government into an idol. It is very difficult for me to continually trust God while aggressively engaging in this area. I pray, try to stay informed and enter into discussion/petition etc when I feel God has specifically allowed or instructed me to.

    In no way do I believe it is anti-Biblical for other believers to legally participate more deeply in government related concerns. If you know God wants you to and do not struggle with divided loyalties, I’m not going to try to stop you! :o)

  88. Heather–I think that I understand what you’re saying. I will find myself getting so wrapped up in the ongoing political battles of each day, that I get angry, and forget to pray for those in power. So, for all my “righteous indignation,” my disobedience is glaring when I don’t trust God, and pray for those whom God has put in power.

    Cottage Child–No worries. It was nothing personal on my end, I didn’t take it personally.

    All Best,

    Cathy

  89. The render to Caesar is only the first part of the verse. So… the current gov’t is not caesar…

    We could interchange other names there, but if you focus, instead, on the second part of the verse it is hard to rationalize your choices– “unto God’s the things that are Gods.” God is, was and will forever be the one whom we should render our children. They are not ours, nor the public property, they are the LORDS!!!!!!!!! This is why you will not see the Smith blessings in the godless public school system. They are with their parented being continually prayed over and trained up in the way of the Lord. Well… we are not perfect, but this is our goal. 🙂

  90. Kelly,I would love it if you could post Heathers comment as a separate post.
    I would really like to make a copy of it if that would be exceptable too the both of you.

    Heather,this is exactly what I would tell people.If I could spell,type or string together a coherent sentence.

  91. WOW So Much to address here so I will try to just hit some basic points and be as short and sweet as possible.
    First off, thank you again Kelly for the courage to stand up and be a bold Christian and stand your ground. Thank you for having the courage to do whats right by challenging other Christian women. We all need to encourage and challenge each other as well as keep each other accountable.

    *homeschool*
    I was “lucky” as ps go. I went to a very tiny school. (I graduated with 15 other students) Because my school was so tiny and imbedded deep in the “bible belt” and A mostly christian comunity, we didnt have to much athiest or anti-christian views. Alot of things in the school were pro-christian. Even with this good ps experience I feel HomeSchool or Private Christian Schools are the only right answer. Our Country (USA) was founded on the ideas of free government, states rights, and little interference of government in peoples daily lives. Children should have NEVER been forced into PS. PS are a socialised comepletly un-necessary system. I dont think its what our forefather’s intended and died for. If you look back at history, the first American “public schools” were NOT government funded but funded by the people and the church. And they were typically in a church. Children learned reading and writing from the Bible. Public School is deffinatly not at all right for Children. As Christians we are to be set apart and diffrent. Others should be able to look at us and know we are Christian’s. Sending your children to public school to blend in with the latest fashion trends of immodest apperal and sexual behavior is certainly not diffrent. Homeschooling is an obvious praticle and biblical answer. As women we are to be ministering to our home and keepers of our home. What a better way to minister to your children than to give them a great education? There is no need for me to point out again all the wonderful and biblical reasons for home schooling that Kelly and the other ladies have shared.

    *Abuse*
    Abuse is a horrible thing that is unfortunatly prevelent all over our culture. As Christian’s we must call attention to this amoung our Christian brothers and sisters and help them. I do NOT feel that any significant number of Christian families “choose” to homeschool primarily to “cover up abuse.” I do however sympythise with those who have suffered abuse. It is far to often looked over in our Churches.

    *Modesty*
    This is one of my favorite topics! I have tons on my blog just dedicated to this subject! We as Christian women must not dress in a way that tempts our brothers or promotes lust. I encourage all Christian women to read the book “Bringing up Boys” in this book the author points out things about the way a man’s mind works that women just don’t think about. For example: A man can be VERY VERY provoked just by a split second glance of a women’s thigh ( I fear most of the shorts and skirts young Christian women are wearing reaveal more than that!) and can recall and “Contemplate” on that image at anytime. I want my body and my modesty to be saved and only revealed to my husband. My beauty is a precious gift I am saving only for him. I certainly do NOT want to dress in a way that allows another women’s husband to think of me in a lustful way. He should only think of his wifes beauty and my husband is the only one who should think of mine. Why, as a christian women, do you want to dress “sexy” and have men think Lustfully of you????!!!!! ( I could go on and on but I wont)

    Let me make one last point.
    A family walks into the resturant. The ladies are dressed modestly. The husband and young men are dressed nicely and modestly as well. There is something about this family. The moment you lay eyes on them you know they are Christians.
    I dont know about you but I strive to be THAT family. I want the world to know I am a Daughter of Christ!

    Blessings,
    Tawny

    PS- Bear with me and my many typo’s I am typing very fast and with a horrible headache…I just felt these things needed to be said!

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