Going Green With Everything! (Except the Womb)


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As many angles as I’ve come at this subject before, I thought of yet another one…

A confused commenter scolded me on this fertility post about “making laws” regarding being fruitful and multiplying.  (I deleted the comment for a number of reasons.) Which confuses me, because I’m not the one that said to “be fruitful”, and I’m not the one that created the fruitful womb, and frankly, I said nothing about “law”; I simply implied that the womb was PART of God’s plan of evangelism (more mouths to share the gospel…)

Anyway, that train of thought got me thinking, yet again, why those who do not use birth control are considered such freaks, even among Christians!  (The commenter told me I was not trusting in God, but myself, by having the children God gave me???  I can’t even fathom that reasoning.)

This post is not about what the Bible says about fertility, as I’ve talked about that many times.  It’s not about whether people should or shouldn’t use birth control, or anything about birth control being bad.

It’s about a bizarre twist of thinking I want you to consider.

Recently, our culture has seen a major “green” shift toward all things natural.  Every product you pick up is vying for your tendency toward what is natural.  The environmentalist groups are picketing for us to leave the earth as it is naturally.

Don’t cut the trees.

Leave the animals alone.

It’s even showing up in the latest trends in landscaping–natural is better.

There’s a move toward natural childbirth, natural skin products, natural (organic) gardening–the buzz word is “LEAVE IT AS IT IS”.

Except in the area of reproduction…

And ironically, that shift is in the opposite direction, with new drugs that will inhibit a menstrual cycle indefinitely (how unnatural is that?).

And despite all the scientific evidence of the benefits of “going natural” in this area (more pregnancies, less cancer…more periods, greater risk of cancer…) we not only ignore that research, we absolutely ostracize those who are “going natural” with their reproduction, giving no credit to their desire for healthier reproduction choices.  (I can speak of this, I know…I live it.)

It’s the same question I’ve asked for a long time…use birth control if you wish.  But shouldn’t “natural be the norm” by default?  If we artificially altered any other part of the normally functioning body we’d be thought insane.

But with just this one area, I’m considered crazy if I don’t do something that is unnatural and possibly harmful to my body to stop its normal function.  (And even NFP is quite unnatural if you think about the interference of intimacy…”sorry honey, wrong day.”)

Again, this is NOT a debate on why or why not use birth control (I know about all the reasons some people give for using it.)  Nor is it meant to make BC users feel bad.

It’s about what should be considered normal as a starting point, by our very design.  At the very least, if we were thinking clearly on this one, those using birth control should receive the questions…”is there a reason you ‘got broken’ ?”

Do you see my point?

87 Responses to “Going Green With Everything! (Except the Womb)”

  1. You are so right! I’m not a bumper sticker person, but I appreciate one that reads “save the baby humans” on so many levels….isn’t it interesting that we want procreation and protection of so many species (and I agree with that ideal, largely), except for that of humans? I so appreciate Greenpeace for their vigilance, if not their tactics – but I wonder if their same effort on behalf of HUMANITY (and I don’t mean just hoardes of humans, I mean the best of ourselves), wouldn’t have saved the whales, and a few thousand starving children besides. I would love to see a team of activists staring down a warlord’s caravan in the Sudan, as millions of people wait for the provisions in the shipment. I don’t see the two as mutually exclusive, biblically or otherwise.

    I know, and you know, and most of your readers know, why there is so much self-loathing in the world, and what the challenge of the Great Commission is all about. But how is a human baby viewed as only a “footprint”, and a panda baby viewed as an “accomplishment? Whose footprint, whose accomplishment, exactly?

    I love promoting “natural family planning” – sadly, from the opposite point of view you have – my husband and I decided, too early, that we were “done”. And we’ve grieved that decision. Expanding the goodness of humanity, as Jesus came to us, to show us God in our every day life – I love the glory and the humility merged.

  2. Mrs. Santos says:

    I do see your point. “Natural” is acceptable in everything except being fruitful. Kinda like religion is acceptable as long as you don’t talk about Jesus.

  3. Ruth says:

    I have thought this for a long time. It makes no sense to me.

  4. kc says:

    hi, i have been a reader of this blog for some time. i have a problem and i really feel lost in it. my husband and i are having our 5th child July 14th. we have never used any birth control other than the po method (how i am trying to be tactful :)we will never use the pill or i.u.d. my problem/question is this…i am turning 37 in 5 days, this will be 3rd c-section, i almost bled to death with 3rd(they had to go back in 12 hours later because of internal bleeding)i have a prolapsed cervix and i always have PIH even with very little weight gain. my husband has put his foot down and said one of us is getting fixed. i mourn for the ones we will not have. i know that my body is worn out but i also know that God is bigger and stronger than my body. i keep reading Psalm 92:12-15. i so desire to have as many children as God will allow and my husband desires the same but he is fearful this will kill me. what to do? please pray we make the right decision…i value your input on this matter.
    thank you
    kc

  5. Nancy says:

    Very well said! Most people think I’m a nut, but I just want to honor God. That’s why he created us! Children are a blessing and not a burden. Thank you for your wonderful thoughts.

  6. Luanne says:

    Green is about saving the earth and our environment. With a lot more people, we use a lot more resources.

    I don’t care if you have babies or you don’t, but I am not convinced that the earth isn’t too crowded. Nothing you quote convinces me of that.

  7. Ruby says:

    Cottage Child is so right!
    Here, whales and unwanted pups and kittens get media coverage but little souls are deemed worthless. This is so wrong and so anti life.
    And kc this is a very hard thing for couples. I will remember you and your situation in prayer. Been there. Be encouraged.
    Ruby

  8. Sarah says:

    Thank you so much for your post. My husband and I have been treated so terribly because of our choice to not tell God what to do. And Christians have been the worst. Because of our choice to not use BC, we have a 3 yo son and an 18 mo daughter. We then have 9 babies in Heaven. Though losing 9 little ones has been very difficult for us, we rejoice in the face that one day we will worship our Savior with those little ones. What a blessing it is to give God complete control. To be able to enjoy each other as husband and wife and not be worrying “Oh will I get pregnant? Oh this just can’t happen.”
    I personally believe a lot of “economic” problems are because of the rampant use of BC and the abortions that have taken place. Many in my generation have been lost because of this choice – by Christian men and women.
    The Lord will judge us for not obeying Him. He will judge us and punish us for not loving children, and for not letting Him be in control. Jesus said, “Let the little children come unto me and do not forbid them, for such is the kingdom of Heaven.”
    We are blessed to have a doctor who loves children. She refuses to prescribe the BC pill. A couple of weeks ago she did a one night conference on the subject of babies. She said a woman in an average year on the pill would conceive and abort at least 3 babies. It is so sad what is happening in our world today. The world cannot change their mind about children, until Christians do.
    Thank you for your posts about babies! Keep up the great work!!! May the Lord bless you.
    Sarah

  9. Missi says:

    You know there actually is a movement that is non-religious in nature towards rejecting the idea that fertility is a sickness. I can’t remember the website right now, but I’m thinking it can easily be googled. =)

    I think a lot of folks think that having a lot of kids is unresponsible (sp?) since it puts a greater “strain on the Earth”, as if the earth were a weak and frail system. However, in my experience (aside from some outrageous paper plate usage) most large families do a wonderful job of stewarding the creation that God has given us- they garden, they farm, they reuse, they cloth diaper, they avoid hoarding mounds of junky plastic toys. Mostly just to save money, because let’s face it- the Earth doesn’t need saving. 😉

  10. Christi says:

    Wow! I never have thought about this, like this way you shared here. Green everywhere except the womb. And yes, the only births that are celebrated on the news are the abandoned babies in dumpsters, New Year’s babies, and multiple births! Crazy.

    I am glad my womb is green! (Now to get used to cloth diapers…)

  11. Word Warrior says:

    FROM BETHANY…(HAVING TROUBLE POSTING)

    Dear KC- Since I am only on my second child and have not *thank God* suffered any health issues as a result of my pregnancies, I would feel presumptuous to offer you advice in your sitatuion. I do offer you my prayers and my congratulations on your latest blessing! I would also offer one suggestion: Have you ever considered NFP (Natural Family Planning)? Many people mistakenly confuse NFP with the rhythm method, but it is very different–and highly effective when used correctly. I wrote a piece on it at my blog awhile ago which give resources for learning about the method and contacting your local Couples to Couples League if you’d like to take classes to learn the method. Typically, these classes are taught by Catholics couples, since NFP is the only method of “birth control” we are permitted to use, and many Catholics see it as a wonderful ministry to the community, but the classes are often a mix of denominations and religions. Many couples who practice NFP have stories like yours, and you may find support as well as some useful information in such classes.
    Oh, here’s the link to my post: http://applecidermama.blogspot.com/2009/03/openness-to-life-part-iii-natural.html

    Kelly- I have often wondered this myself. Especially when speaking with women who will not buy anything non-organic for fear of “poisoning” their bodies…yet they shoot themselves up with hormones once a month or pop a pill each morning to mess with their reproductive system? It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
    ~Bethany

    Thanks,
    Bethany

  12. Quinn says:

    I find the buzz word “green” to be so appropriate! Those who are producing green products are seeing green….in their wallets. It’s a marketing ploy with a beneficial side effect to the consumer and the planet. My 2 cents though. My womb is green;D

    kc,

    I had a c-section with quite a bit of bleeding (I don’t believe that they would have told me if I was going to bleed to death so I don’t know how bad it actually was) Have you considered a v-bac? Every time you have a c section, it is more dangerous than the last. The risk of a uterine rupture is small (if your scar is the right kind.)

    There are herbs that you can take to tone and strengthen your uterus and make it less likely to hemorrhage.(Such as Red raspberry leaf in 3rd trimester) I used it during my last pregnancy (1st v-bac) in case I ended up on the operating table, and my postpartum bleeding was weeks shorter in duration than it normally is.

    I recommend using the internet for all that it’s worth and talk to a homebirth midwife. (not saying to homebirth necessarily, she could just provide you with another perspective instead of medical)

  13. Word Warrior says:

    K.C.

    I feel DEEPLY for your situation…I can hear your heart and strong desire for more children, and yet, reality is that our bodies can fall prey to illness sometimes, and we’re left with hard decisions to make.

    I honestly don’t know what I would do in your situation; I have some friends going through the same thing and we are just praying with them that the Lord would lead them to make the right decision. I will add you to that prayer.

  14. Word Warrior says:

    Missi,

    I did a youtube post talking about how large families are usually very green! You can view it here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XztytzW53w

  15. Word Warrior says:

    Luanne,

    There is SO much misguided propaganda about “saving the earth” and the earth running out of resources. It is ridiculous! I do agree we should be responsible and good stewards of the earth; that does not mean undermining God’s plan of procreation!

    Christians don’t have to worry about this because an omniscient God created the world to sustain itself until He sees fit to destroy it.
    He didn’t design us to procreate and then stand back and say, “Oh shoot, I forgot to supply enough resources to sustain them all! OK, plan B….everybody stop having children, seems I’ve goofed!”

    And there is so much scientific evidence that vouches for it…it’s just that those who don’t want to believe it…don’t!

    The problem we face is UNDERpopulation…research it since you don’t believe me.

  16. Amber says:

    KC,
    I am in your same situation with this being my 3rd c-section. We want to have more children, but our doctor is unsure how the scar tissue would react. He said “we’ll see when we get in there if the scar tissue is going to handle another section.” I guess lawsuit threats make dr.’s a little more nervous these days. My husband and I are thinking that if the dr. refuses to do another one on me, then we will adopt. There is a huge need there as well. There are so many rejected blessings already in the world that need a home and the gospel as well. So really it is a win/win. You can still have more children, they just won’t be biological.

  17. jasmine says:

    I have wondered the same thing. I noticed with my last pregnancy, I was getting dirty looks at Whole Foods b/c I was pregnant and already had two children. With the whole “green/natural” movement what is more natural than pregnancy and breastfeeding. They won’t eat meat/milk with hormones but are taking them themselves, just doesn’t make sense to me.

  18. Word Warrior says:

    One more thought while my children finish their chores 😉

    Along the lines of what Luanne said and how environmental extremists feel (that more children/population are the earth’s problem), a huge double standard must be noted here.

    As already mentioned, often large families are very “green” out of necessity; recyling, driving less, striving to be more energy-efficient,frugal etc.

    I would have to ask those who (and I’ve heard them say it) would slander large families for being “irresponsible and ignorant”…

    Do you say the same to those who:

    Are divorced? Divorce automatically doubles energy consumption.

    Have one or more children playing sports? (The driving alone should be considered.)

    Go on vacations?

    Don’t plant gardens?

    Buy new clothes? New books? (remember the trees)

    Live in houses too large for their family?

    These are just a few off the top of my head that I don’t hear being made to feel “irresponsible” and rightly so; my point is that having more than two children is probably much less impacting on the earth than our lifestyles, but few are willing to hold people to the same standards.

    Cutting out activities, things, luxuries, etc. makes a lot more sense than cutting out people with immortal souls. God makes provisions for people; not for extravagance or disobedience to the laws of nature.

  19. JenT says:

    Wow. I totally agree with this post and most of the comments. I’ll just say “ditto”.

  20. Elizabeth says:

    I don’t know that most people who go “green” are taking the position that “natural” is always the best way. If that were the case, then presumably they wouldn’t be getting treatment for their illnesses, to give just one example. No one lives in a complete state of nature.

    Environmentalists aren’t so much saying that “natural” is always best. Rather, they are saying that we should take steps to reduce the adverse impact of human activity on the environment. Often that means going “natural” but that’s not the main point.

    Personally, I have never been one to believe that the “natural” way is necessarily better. If we were to live more “naturally,” our life spans would undoubtedly be only about half what they are now. So I am grateful for all the human-made tools and innovations that make our lives so comfortable, including reliable birth control, but I also think it is helpful to consider alternatives that will help the earth survive and fluorish for future generations.

  21. Missi says:

    I was marinading on this at the library and also remembered it’s important to note that their is a huge problem going on related to the hormones being dumped into our local water systems that comes from the urine of women on birth control pills. Fish are mutating and animals are becoming sick and sterile.

    Also, most large families live in less space than DINKS (Double Income No Kids) these days! We actually take up less space, and consume less.

  22. kc says:

    quinn, my doctor, nor any in his group will allow me to have a v-bac with 3 c-sections. i have asked them all:) the reason i almost bled to death was i had internal bleeding that was not caught right away. 12 hours after the birth i was rushed to emergency surgery to open me back up and stop the bleeding. i was in the hospital 7 days with my last. after that we decided to pretty much call it quits, but we got pregnant with our 4th a son and we lost him at 17 weeks. thank you all for your prayers in this matter as it is probably the most difficult decision we have ever had to make. i just don’t want to look back in 2 years and regret what we’ve done.
    kc

  23. Word Warrior says:

    Missi,

    Very good point–it’s a “new” problem they’re just discovering. Again, there is very little good about birth control, considering the harmful effects to humans–both to those who take it, and now, as we know, EVERYONE!

  24. Word Warrior says:

    Elizabeth,

    Although you didn’t make a direct correlation, there was a hint of comparison in your comment between medecine and birth control.

    Be aware, the two are opposites. One heals/repairs what is broken; the other impairs what works normally.

  25. angela says:

    I just finished reading Richard Wurmbrand’s (founder Voice of the Martyrs) book, Tortured for Christ. In it, he writes of the Communist demand for birth control as a way of limiting the youth that can be influenced for Christ. It makes me all the more wonder at the church/Christian acceptance and even promotion of birth control as “responsible”. When did it become our responsibility to wrest control from God as Creator, Father, Provider, and Giver of life??

  26. Word Warrior says:

    FROM QUINN…

    kc,

    That’s what my midwife (who works under a dr.) said too. She was going to let me have a trial of labor if I went into labor before my due date, if not schedule a c/s. I knew that if I didn’t do something, I was toast because I don’t have my babies early or even on time. The cause for my c/s wasn’t a problem in that pregnancy so I didn’t want to have one because I’ve had one. That’s why I ended up doing a homebirth, something I never would have imagined in a million years I would have ever done a few years ago. Obviously I don’t know all of your circumstances for having your 1st c/s (I’m assuming that 2 and 3 were because of #1), but you’ve had 2 babies the old fashioned way so you know that you can. (Dr.s say some women “can’t” inadequate pelvis etc..) Sounds to me like it’s the c/s that is dangerous not the pregnancy. Also, it may be that it’s the insurance companies that won’t allow dr.s to deliver you another way. That’s how it is here. I think it’s a bunch of bologna that insurance companies can dictate medical treatment! I’m sorry to hear about your loss. That must have been heartbreaking. Sorry to take it off topic Kelly! Quinn

  27. Word Warrior says:

    Well said, Angela…congratulations on your newest little one!

  28. Elizabeth says:

    Word warrior,

    As you acknowledged, my point really wasn’t that birth control is medicine. It was that whether it is “natural” or not isn’t really the point when analyzing an issue from an environmental standpoint.

    One reason I thought this post was interesting though is that you are looking at the double standard from a different way than I always have. To me, it seems like a double standard that people (including many feminists) often rail against interfering with nature when it comes to women’s menstrual or reproductive functions. Yet, as human beings, we constantly do the “unnatural” in every realm of our lives, from traveling 65mph in cars, flying in the air, treating cancer, taking vitamin supplements, and a million other things.

    In fact, I think the idea that there is a line between what is “natural” and “unnatural” is a bit misleading. After, all we either evolved or were created with an innate ability to manipulate our environment by creating tools to make our lives easier and making conscious choices about how to live. In that sense, a lot of human-made innovations in our lives ARE perfectly “natural.” That’s not to say that they are all good; I just don’t think that whether something is “natural” is the measure of whether something is good or not.

  29. Tara says:

    Kelly,
    I have never commented on your blog before but I have been wanting to tell you about this book that I’ve just finished reading. It’s called Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth by Ina May Gaskin (she is a midwife). It runs along the same lines as being “green” in childbirth. It’s a resourceful book and it hides nothing from you like “doctors” do. She also talks about VBAC’s and pitocin (which actually stresses out the baby because the contractions are harder than normal effect of human oxytocin), tranqulizers (which causes newborns to be limp upon birth), and all the other unnatural methods of starting labor. I could go on and on! I think every woman should read it this book before they have anymore children.

    Tara

  30. Word Warrior says:

    Tara,

    Funny…I just read some things about her today, though I’ve heard of her before during my natural childbirth research…but I’d love to read her book!

  31. Christine says:

    This is such a thought provoking post! Fertility should be embraced as the norm, not as the exception! How organic is it to pop a pill to prevent a normal process? I second the comment about Ina May. Her book gave me so much food for thought and truly prepared me for my first natural birth, my thirdborn. Her book is a treasure trove of natural birth stories and inspiration. Many blessings to you!

  32. Michelle says:

    Great post as usual Kelly.

    This is to kc,
    I don’t know if it will be of benefit, but I thought I would share our history a bit.

    We have nine children on earth and five in heaven.

    We realized the sovereigny of God after our 4th child.

    My first 4 children were born via c/s, the 4th was going to be vbac, was breech and the turning of her went bad and was an emergency c/s. Very scary for both of us, my blood pressure plummeted, felt like I was actually on the outside of my body looking down, very weird! both her and I were fine in the end.

    Child 5,6,7 were vbac.

    Child 8 was a c/s due to a tearing feeling around past incision cite. When they got in there they were praising God for the c/s because my womb was soooooooo thin, the Dr. had a hard time sewing it back together as it was almost in shreds.

    child 9 was a c/s because of the previous thinning wall of my womb. When they got in there they were SHOCKED at how great my uterus looked! It would probably have been no problem to do a vbac.

    If the Lord should bless us again we will seek Him on what to do, but lean towards a c/s unless He speaks otherwise.

    I share all this to encourage you that we did have some close calls, though not as scary as yours, but that God is so in control. He knows when to give life and when to withhold. After my 8th child there is an almost 4 year difference, no bc! Do you think maybe the Lord allowed that time for me to heal?

    I also have a very ‘worn out’ body, though am working to restore that 😉 He knows what is best. My dr. has said that if I went away for 3 months and slept all day that is about how long it would take my body to ‘catch up’and heal. I have pain everyday that is related to multiple pregnancies. My hormones and adrenals are shot! I am 43 years old, no spring chicken 😉

    Also, He leads each of us differently. We are praying for you and your husband. My dh understands watching his wife suffer and pay a high price at times with her health to bear children. He also understands the fear.

    I am sure you know that you need to trust God and your husband

    I don’t know if that helps. Things don’t always go the way we think or the way the doctors tell us they will go. Only One knows!
    Trusting in His Faithfulness,

    Michelle
    She Looketh Well

  33. Sunshine says:

    All natural….great idea. Where does accepting the “natrual” and “green” flow of childbirth and fertility fit in with your decision to repetitively use medication to ease pain during labor? I know I have read posts from you on this before. I mean, part of labor is pain….God sovereignly ordained this as part of the curse. So, isn’t using medication to help ease/numb that pain going against the natrual flow of things that God set in place (for HIS reasons)? Wouldn’t that be just as wrong as interfereing with His sovereign control of the womb? I know (from previous posts) that you are considering natural child-birth this time, but do you feel like you sinned previously for not being “natural?”

  34. Mrs. N says:

    You should also read Ina May Gaskins book Spiritual Midwifery as well, one of my favorites

  35. J in VA says:

    Kelly,

    Another thing to factor in the “green discussion” is that breast feeding, like fertility, is not considered normal or the default position.

    Many times woemn have to fight for the right to do the thing that breasts are meant to do. I work in maternal-child health and I’ve made a conscious decision to always ask questions as neutrally as possible so I’m at least not appearing to equalize non-equal decisions.

    I am really moved by the comment about those who avoid hormones in their food but think nothing of downing one (or more) daily.

  36. Luanne says:

    I think there is a very good reason, as Elizabeth pointed out, for birth control. Because some women can’t handle twelve kids. They don’t have the emotional or financial or physical resources to do it. Then they are bad mothers or they hit them or they drown them or or or.

    I don’t understand why you don’t see that. I know you mean well but I think encouraging women to keep having babies is irresponsible of you. And if having babies is going to make you sick, then you should stop having them.

    In olden times, they saved the mother not the baby when there was a problem.

  37. Word Warrior says:

    Sunshine,

    At this point, no I don’t feel like I sinned using pain meds…my reasoning has always been that because pain was a result of the fall, then we were blessed to be able to stop pain when possible (novacaine, etc.) I know there are many who do not feel that childbirth pain falls into that category, I’m just not there yet. But, yes, that is one more reason I’m going natural this time…

    and another point, this post is not written because I am personally green in every area (we used paper plates for supper!) I’m just bringing up an interesting/ironic point.

  38. Word Warrior says:

    Luanne,

    First, I don’t encourage ALL women to accept God’s gifts; I am speaking to Christian women, because that is who the commands of Scripture are given to.

    Which brings my next point…it is not ME at all who said “be fruitful and multiply” or that children are a blessing, or “blessed is the man whose quiver if full of them”, etc., etc. (Nor am I the one who struck Onan dead for withdrawing…but I digress.)

    You’re right; there are women who don’t need 12 children, but a Christian woman believes (or should 😉 that she “can do all things through Christ who gives her strength”…and is not living her life for herself, but to lay down her life for others–a concept non-believers would probably not understand to the same extent.

    I have also given my sympathies to women who were struggling physically, and admonished them to pray, research and consider carefully their positions.

    By the same token, we do live in a world where brokenness and sickness happen. Hearts wear out from so much beating and we try to fix them; it doesn’t mean that the hearts shouldn’t beat.

    I’m encouraging women who love the Lord to embrace children as I believe He does. And I’m encouraging women in the FACT, that generally speaking, it is healthier to have children than to prevent them.

    Funny, I’ve never heard someone called “irresponsible” for promoting birth control though there is a plethora of health problems and cancer that results from it, and far more women suffering from those than from having children…

    I would be interested in your opinion on that irony.

  39. Luanne says:

    I don’t agree. Barrier methods (such as condoms and the cervical cap) don’t cause cancers or health problems. Not everyone has to go on the pill. I never have.

    So what I think is that maybe you fire up women who are Christians to throw away their barrier methods. And then they can’t handle all those kids. That’s later. Yes, I do think that is irresponsible. A lot of pastors do that too, and I think the same thing. They say, “God wants it this way, however you feel about it.” God might have said that for another time. (I think you are also wrong about resources. You tend to quote from Christian oriented publications not real science. My best friend is a scientist. Resources are not limitless. You have ten kids and maybe you don’t use a lot. But then they have ten kids. Your reasoning doesn’t hold up. That doesnt’ mean I’m telling you to stop having babies. It’s not my place. I’m just saying.)

    It’s one thing to uphold a belief system. I think the reality is very different. Everyone needs to decide what they can handle. God also gave us free will. That is my opinion.

  40. Word Warrior says:

    Luanne,

    You are certainly welcome to your opinion. I think coming at a subject from a Christian vs. non-Christian angle makes all the difference…just so you’ll know, I feel a calling (from Scripture, as should every Christian woman) to teach what is right, and true, and good.

    That’s why I share these things. For all the reasons I’ve mentioned many times on this blog (not the least of which is the fact that many artificial BC cause spontaneous abortion before a woman knows she is pregnant), I feel an obligation to share what I know and feel to be true for Christian women.

  41. Luanne, it’s funny you mention condoms and cervical caps – using them regularly requires more discipline than raising 12 kids. I’m just sayin’….

    I appreciate your position – please don’t think I don’t. I think this is about conviction, not “marching orders”. We each mature spiritually, in different ways, at different paces. One thing I have observed – and this is just me, from my unapologetically biased point of view – I don’t know any women who regret having any of their children. I know plenty, myself included, who count the children they have as blessings, and wonder why we denied ourselves MORE blessings!!! If there are Christian women who have one or two children, and they decide with their husbands that they are a complete family, I wouldn’t presume to argue with them. I just don’t know any.

    I think ignoring any part of scripture ultimately separates us from our highest callings, motherhood and otherwise. It’s important to offer our tithe, it’s important to pray, it’s ALL important. The point is, what about scripture will we set aside for convenience? And I don’t think good health is an arbitrary convenience, please don’t misunderstand. So, it’s somewhat harder, somewhat more tiring, somewhat more expensive to have more children….that doesn’t add up to mental or physical inablility to meet the challenge. Illness, physical and mental, brought on by fatigue, is not because of children or any other hardship, it’s brought on by not following other scriptures (observing the Sabbath, husbands love your wives, be sober be vigilant, the list is endless). This is not a denial of actual mental illness – that is a medical condtion requiring immediate and aggresive treatment, and I praise God that he has equipped doctors for that work. It is still amazing to me that Andrea Yates’ husband wasn’t charged as an accessory to his children’s murder – at the very least child endangerment – disgusting.I just know women, and the poor me/precious vessel/pretty princess self-image haunts even the most devout among us.

    So, I don’t know if you’re a Christian – if you are, Love in Christ, and if you’re not, Love in Christ. I think any of the women here would love to share about their walks if you would like for them to.

    And I can’t find the name of the gal who posted about large families actually using fewer resources than most dinks – you’re right!!! That’s a great point – my husband and I spend less now, with three kids, live in a smaller house, drive the same two cars, than we did when we were just the two of us – ha! T

  42. Sunshine says:

    Is there a reason that my comment/question was deleted?

  43. Word Warrior says:

    Sunshine,

    It’s not deleted…it’s still there!

  44. Word Warrior says:

    If you have posted a second time, and it’s not there, it’s not because it was deleted…lots of commenters (including myself sometimes!) have had trouble with their comment not posting…very frustrating and I have NO idea how to fix it. If you find a comment you make doesn’t post, email it to me, and I’ll post it.

  45. Sunshine says:

    I had posted a 2nd comment. It w

  46. Sunshine says:

    Well, that one submitted too quickly…..I was referring to the 2nd comment that I cannot find….I suppose it just didn’t submit well….although the 3rd one submitted to quickly….strange.

  47. Leslie Viles says:

    I think we need to all realize that there are consequences for not obeying God. Some are natural, such as the cancer/not having babies early or enough connection. We don’t know what God knows. He created our bodies and then told us how to eat, how to live, and how to procreate. Every person has the free-will to do as they please, but PLEASE accept the fact that there are consequences to our action or lack of action in all areas. when we ignore a command there are consequences, many we won’t find out about until it is to late.

  48. Luanne says:

    Leslie, I can’t believe you are saying that cancer is a judgment! That is – wow. That is SO unfair to people who have had cancer. I lost my mom to cancer and she was as god-fearing as they come.

    I won’t take on more than I can handle because of fear of “consequence.” That doesn’t make sense to me. There are too many that will have to pay the consequences of that. Also, I don’t see be fruitful and multiply as anything like that. God didn’t say – You MUST have 18 children!!! Where is that written? Two is also fruitful.

    If you can do it, that’s great. I appreciate your views. We all walk our walks. But to say that I’ll be punished for deciding that I can’t handle an entire brood without completely losing my mind? 🙂 No. I don’t accept that. I think you’re wrong, wrong, wrong. First you say that you’re not telling anyone to use or not use birth control then you’re saying I’ll maybe GET CANCER because I’ve thwarted God’s will?

    Wow.

  49. kc says:

    michelle, wow THANK YOU very much for that post. i so appreciate your view point and may i say how very sorry i am for the loss you have had. i find it amazing the differences in medical care from one doctor to the next or at least from one region to the next. my doctor flipped out when i asked to try a vbac with this one. i tend to have breech babies with no successful external versions, that is why the prior c-sections. i need to read more about the uterus repairing itself after time. my husband and i have never used b/c and all of our babies are exactly 3 years apart with the exception of the last one he is 2. i never really thought it was getting stronger only weaker and no one has ever told me differently. my husband has been just certain one of us should be surgically fixed, but i have brought these arguments to his attention (respectfully) and asked him to continue to seek God’s will in this. tonight he wrote on his facebook after his mom said we should stop having babies… “Who are we to question GODs sovereignty? Children are a blessing and every blessing only glorifies Him. This is our struggle and we will prayerfully consider all options” i know i will feel comfortable respecting his final decision…he is a wonderful wonderful man who loves me very much.
    thank you all for your prayers and support.
    kelly i’m sorry i hijacked your post 🙂

  50. Leslie Viles says:

    Luanne,

    I am not saying cancer is a judgement. Anymore than smokers with lung cancer. I am saying that there are consequences, NATURAL consequences to not using our bodies the way God told us to. I am overweight and I of course expect there will be consequences to that.

    Two maybe fruitful, but it is not multiplying, only replacing. I am not judging people who have a few children, as I only have 3 and my husband has decided that is all. we are barely multiplying. I also worry that there may be consequences to the fact that I used BC pills when I was younger and the fact that I didn’t exclusively breastfeed my first child.

    we need to get real! There are consequences to all decisions. Sometimes it is upsetting to find out about the consequences after we have already made a decision, especially when it is contrary to God’s word.

    I think if you read my original post again you will see that there is not mention of judgement from GOD.

  51. kimberly says:

    It often surprises me that fertility is only a blessing until you have your allowed 2 children. Then it becomes something to be altered, feared, and manipulated. I have used NFP at different seasons of my life. Particularly, while recovering from my 3 c-sections, i would mention at no time during my recovery was i in the mood for anything anyway. After my last pregnancy, my fertility did not return for over a year, I am really happy to feel like myself again, and happy to be with my husband. NFP has its place, but i do not use it on a regular basis, when i like my husband, i really like him, i think thats what God intended in marriage…I come from a long line, of long lines, I am the 5th of 6 children, I have 9 living children and have been pregnant 11 times. If I become pregnant again, I face a 4th c-section, but, i’ll cross that bridge if and when God decides to bless us again.

  52. Luanne says:

    Leslie, I don’t want to be harsh, but you are clearly standing judgment if you say that “two is not fruitful.” I don’t know of any woman who has keeled over and died for not having seven children. I do know of children who have died of neglect and being battered though.

    I do not think it is God’s word that women should keep breeding beyond their capacities to raise children. I do not think it is fair when Christians point fingers and say that women should feel/do a certain thing because the Scriptures say so. Some of this is interpretation. The Bible was not written in English. It was translated. Have you considered this?

    Look to your own house, Leslie. I will look to mine.

  53. Katey says:

    Wow, you are very correct in your observation. I have never thought about how the trend in the “natural” and “organic” products have deliberately left out birth control. You would think that a least birth control companies would attempt to make a more natural birth control (if there is such a thing) but they always choose to tout convenience over health. Great post. Thanks for your blog.

  54. Joanna says:

    KC (Kelly, I hope this is okay to say here), I just wanted to say that you have to take the blessing of being fruitful and multiplying in the light of other commands has given, “the whole counsel of God,” such as commands to protect life. I say this in seriousness, knowing a Christian woman who died in childbirth. If you and your husband see your health as imminently in danger from becoming pregnant, I don’t see it as a sin to take wise precautions, as you prayerfully consider your options, and the wise counsel of others. As other people said, there are other ways of being fruitful than just biological children (adoption, reaching out to the needy in your church, opening up your home to the brethren).

    *prayers as you make hard decisions*

  55. Leslie Viles says:

    Luanne,

    I was just trying to point out some things we, as women, might want to consider. I think I am looking at the Bible as a literal instruction manual. Of course, many people don’t believe the bible literally.
    This is a place to express opinion and I expressed mine. I am very sorry that you took offense. I am not really sure why. It seems that if I said “if you touch a hot coal you will get burned” there would be no question of judgment. As science learns more and more, it seems to me that many things in the bible that did not make sense before, do now.

    I have considered translation, as I have REALLY STUDIED as much as I can. I use what is considered the most closely translated bible, the NASB and I do think that as we get further along in our walk with Jesus, we will want to be as obedient as we can and that means sometimes doing things we don’t want to do.

    My post was not directed at YOU. It was just MY thoughts on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me during MY bible study. I just don’t think we are coming at this from the same angle. I think in all areas, not just BC, we (as Christians, not just women) suffer when we don’t obey our Heavenly Father. Just as when our own children disobey they sometimes have to suffer heartbreaking consequences. we see the big picture and they do not. God sees the big picture and we do not.

    I am not writing in a mean or judgmental spirit. There are decisions I made when I was younger that were specifically not biblical, but worldly. Now that I am older, I wish there had been a Godly, Titus 2 woman, to present a different viewpoint. Instead, I got worldly viewpoints from people who no doubt loved the Lord. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. Honestly, I was a little surprised at the INTERPRETATION of my original post, as I don’t think it had a judgmental tone to it, and I certainly didn’t mean for it to come off that way, but only as loving guidance for other women.

  56. mommy to many says:

    Luanne, I have never posted on here, but WOW, you are so defensive!!!!I sometimes find that when people are so defensive that there may be some guilty feelings involved. Perhaps you are ignoring conviction(after all you are reading this blog)I think the post here are friendly and I do not think that leslie was being judgemental at all. It has been proven that taking hormonal birth control can lead to an increased risk of blood clot, stroke, and heart attack(those 3 are on the lable)and research is proving that it can contribute to an increased risk of things like endomitriosis(sp) and some cancers.A consequence is DEFINATELY different than a judgement, that is all I think Leslie is trying to say. I don’t think that her post sounds judgemental at all and while everybody’s posts seem kind in nature yours are VERY HARSH and defensive in tone.Again I wonder…why so defensive???

  57. tabitha says:

    I agree about the hormonal BC. Everybody is talking about all the hormones in the meat, chicken and milk. You see products everywhere that say HORMONE FREE now but nobody sees any problem with pumping our bodies full of them every month. Synthetic hormones that God didn’t intend to be there, there most certainly will be consequences. I also don’t think anybody was suggesting that God would send cancer as a judgment (that is a silly deduction), there is definitely a difference between a consequence and a judgment. The bible says gluttony is bad but being overweight and having the health issues that go with it is not a judgment from God but an earthly consequence. Still the bible says not to be gluttons and these are instructions for us. There is also clear scripture about having children and reproduction. “Children are like arrows in the hand of a mighty warrior, BLESSED is the man who’s quiver is FULL of them” it says FULL, a quiver was a pouch that held arrows and it held about a half dozen. There is other scripture about reproduction it only takes a little research to find it. I don’t think that anyone was judging or saying cancer was a judgment, consequences are very different.

  58. Luanne says:

    Ladies, I already said – I don’t take the pill. Never have. I am not worried about hormones. Geesh. You are splitting hairs. Judgment or consequences – you are saying the exact same thing. Own it. Honestly, I don’t like when people throw scripture at me and tell me what is clear. The Bible is not a blueprint to me. I trust what I know of Him in my heart. That is what I meant by I walk my path. You walk yours.

    You are all certainly in judgment against women who decide against a quiver FULL. Don’t you see that? If you tell someone they are wrong, then they might tell you that they disagree. That isn’t defensive, it is honest 😉

    I will tell you the truth. I think you are all brainwashed to believe that they only way to worship is the way of Vision Forum and all. But it isn’t. I stand by what I said before: it is irresponsible to keep telling women that GOD SAYS THEY MUST KEEP HAVING CHILDREN THEY DON’T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO RAISE.

    Now I’ll leave you, with the last word. Hah.

  59. Leslie Viles says:

    Luanne,

    I promise this will be my last post on this subject. I just wanted to point out a couple of small things. First, there is definitely a difference in judgment and consequences. Judgment conjures a picture of God sitting on his throne and zapping people with illnesses. Consequences are what happens naturally. An example would be if I touch something hot, I will probably get burned. NOw God is not up there zapping the burns down on me. I burned myself. Do you see the difference.

    I understand that you may think we are all brainwashed by Vision Forum, when in fact I was drawn to Vision Forum because I was looking for Godly material that supports scripture.

    I also understand that you don’t believe the bible is a blueprint and that is your right. However, you are trying to argue a point about God when you don’t believe fully in his word. I find this a bit confusing. If you don’t believe the bible is the blueprint, what do you think it is. Is it a suggestion? Is it even relevant. I don’t understand how some people (many of my relatives and friends) believe part of the bible and not others. How do you decide what is true and what is just fluff? This makes no sense to me. I know this back and forth is off the subject of green. I am really sorry and I promise that no matter what I am done, as I don’t we are going to be able to find common ground on this one and surely everything has been written that needs to be.

  60. Luanne says:

    I believe that the Bible is a guide. I believe that God gave us free will to use it as a guide, not as an absolute. I believe that many people have interpreted the Bible differently. I believe that God thinks human happiness is important – that is why there is so much of it on this earth.

    I believe that God loves me. If I were to throw away my safe barrier birth control I would be embracing something that would reduce me in his eyes. He is who gave me my intelligence and free will.

    That is what I believe. I make sacrifices as all of you do. But I will not not not be bound as you are to a sureness that you know exactly God’s plan for everyone. You do not. You do not know his plan for me. I do not know his plan for you. You can’t imply that I am in error.

  61. Nicole says:

    I so appreciated this post because I had been thinking along the same lines of being “green.” Anyway, I think that naturally Christians are called to be “green” or “good stewards” to me that is essentially the same thing. We must be good stewards because that’s what He’s asked of us, but God has promised that He will continue to provide for us, so – Thank God, we don’t have to be worried about Global Warming!

    Just one other thing I want to point out about using any form of BC, whether it is the pill, a barrier, NFP, surgical sterilization, whatever – is that I personally know several couples who have still become pregnant while using one or more of these forms of BC. It is not foolproof.

    The topic of BC (of any form) is something my husband and I have talked about quite a bit. On one hand, he’s given us tools to use wisely for our benefit, and perhaps one of the various forms of BC could be considered one of those tools. On the other hand, we are called to trust Him fully – and in my thinking, using any form of Birth Control at least somewhat takes our trust a little away from God and puts it a little into the hands of whatever BC method we choose to use.

    I’m sorry Kelly, I know you’d said this was not a post about whether or not to use BC, but I just felt that this point (Birth Control is NOT always 100% effective) was worth mentioning.

  62. Word Warrior says:

    Luanne,

    I’ll have to interject here, that I will delete further comments with such “judgemental”, to use your term assertions such as “I think you are all brainwashed to believe that the only way to worship is the way of Vision Forum”…

    I take great offense to that on a personal level, and in defense of a godly man who has done nothing but uphold the truth of God’s Word.

    I decided LONG before I’d ever heard of VF, to give God soverereignty over my womb. (I’m with Leslie; VF was a resource I found to uphold many biblical beliefs I already embraced.)

    I don’t look to any group or man for my “worship” or my guidelines for living, or whatever, And that kind of talk is slanderous and harmful to the body of Christ; there is enough of it going around already to allow it here–I WON’T.

    Furthermore, as I’ve said before, I share what I feel IS clear teaching from God’s Word, that children are a blessing, and that God is the author and give of life, the One who opens and shuts the womb. I feel a passion the share this message because the opposite one is so rampant in our culture, and I think Christian women have been fed that one too long.

    I’ve always been careful to say that there are circumstances where families must pray and consider this issue carefully, so no, I don’t go around saying that if you aren’t “quiverfull” you’re wrong.

    But as a believer in the Word, I also believe it’s wrong to withold guidance and direction as an “older woman” (maybe I don’t qualify yet, but you get my point)…

    Where Scripture is concerned, there are some gray areas, and there are some black and white. We live in a culture that has told us “truth is relative; what’s right for you may not be right for me”…and I don’t believe that about all Scripture. I believe we are obligated to discuss, research, share with each other and challenge each other on what the Bible says; if you don’t agree, I’m not sure why you enjoy these discussions,

    I welcome those challenging discussions, but not arguing for the sake of arguing.

  63. Word Warrior says:

    Luanne,

    Perhaps you have left the conversation, which is fine…perhaps someone else needs to ponder these things…the Lord has brought so many thoughts to my mind concerning some of your comments…

    “I trust what I know of Him in my heart’…very poetic and sounds nice, but Scripture speaks directly against this line of reasoning…

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

    Again, the Bible is in fact a blueprint, and speaks on virtually every subject in life, including our “knowing of Him in our hearts”.

    You also said, “I believe that God thinks human happiness is important…”

    Funny, the Bible says that nowhere. And even more ironic, many of the places it mentions human happiness has to do with having children 😉 “Happy is the man whose quiver is full of [children]–just thought I’d mention that.

    No, the Bible says God thinks -holiness-, not happiness, is important. Although, obedience does bring happiness, but there isn’t a saint in Scripture who really lived a “happy” life by the world’s standards. It was always a surrender of earthly happiness that brought true happiness.

    I just want to be sure we know that yes, the Bible is clear and does speak solidly on many subjects.

    Again, I’m not on this blog saying “this is the way it is”…I’m pointing out how often our culture speaks opposite of God’s Word, and how we must be much more careful in giving it credit rather than our own feelings and whims.

  64. Luanne says:

    I know you feel this way, Kelly. But I disagree. The Bible is a translated document from many many years ago. You weren’t there! I mean this in the nicest way. This does not believe that I do not hear the word of God. I do. But there is more than Scripture.

    My heart is not deceitful. I can tell you that.

    I am a beloved wife and mother, and a very devout member of my church. I love God. He loves me. I am more concerned with this than with your reading of the Scripture. When I meet my God, he will see that I have been a good and devout woman. The rest, to me, is just legalism.

    I don’t want to argue with you. You have your ways. We will meet in Heaven and then we will know all. 🙂

    Blessings,

    Luanne

  65. Leslie Viles says:

    I heard from a pastor that legalism is what you do to look right to people and holiness is what you do to be right with God.

  66. mommy to many says:

    As I read all the things said here I keep pondering many thoughts that I really want to share and truly not to be arguementative but because my story is some what different I was the last person who I thought would have many children. I used to babysit for a woman who had 5 and I thought she was crazy!! When my husband and I started out he was an only child and I from a family of 3 children. We had a girl and then a boy, we were sure that was perfect how blessed we thought we were and we could stop having children now.By worldly standards we were the perfect family and then…we had a surprise:) Now we had 3 wonderful children and then another. God had started to reveal to us through different things that we could do this, that HE could do this, that He could provide for us. It was through a long list of things that God showed us this and reminded us that he provides for us. There is a sermon on tithe at least two times a month at church and countless testimonies about it in sunday school and elsewhere. They all say the same thing “we didn’t think we had money to tithe but we did anyway,we were faithful and did it with a good heart” and then the stories will go on to say that God provided for their family in some way to make up the difference. What God revealed to us was simply taking that faith to the next level. No one would argue that you should not tithe but if you stand up and say God would not give you children that he would not provide for and all of a sudden you are a lunatic!!! I understand that there are many children who go hungry and neglected and that hurts my heart but I am speaking to Christians who seek the word of God and pray for his guidance and help he will show you how to make it work if you seek him earnestly just like he does in other areas of your life. Let me be clear and blount anybody especially a christian who thinks that their “resources” are self achieved or that they provide for themselves in any way are ridiculous. Everything we have, no matter how many children we have, is God given. Any christian would think it was not right to stop tithing so you can be sure to have enough money but it is O.K. to stop having children to be sure you have enough money.With regards to the ability to handle the challenge, I think of many greats in the bible whose first inclination was to say I can’t do that…Moses and Jonah come to mind, where would we be if they hadn’t changed their heart and accepted God’s challenge? By the way their jobs were much harder than considering having more children:)I say these things because we forget that bible characters are not magical or with a greater strength than our own, they are real people, Moses could have gone on to live a wealthy happy life as a prince if he had said no and we should not think that just because the verses are short that it was an easy decision for him. I do not think anyone here wants to tell everybody to have lots of children but that we should be telling them to consider it and to pray about it as earnestly as anything else in their life because for some reason modern society and even modern christianity is telling couples that is the only thing they don’t have to pray about and that they can just decide on their own about this area. I say this because nobody ever talked to my husband or me about this not in church or amongst our christian friends, We didn’t even know that there was scripture to read and pray about concerning children, it is not even presented as an option. And that is all that I think the people here are trying to do. After all when is the last time you heard a sermon on what the bible says about children????

  67. mommy to many says:

    for anyone who is wondering we now have 5 children out of 6 pregnancies and have decided to leave the decision about further children in God’s hands

  68. Leslie Viles says:

    mommy to many,

    Thank you very much for your testimony. I am praying right now for God to change my husband’s heart regarding having more children. I also would like to be mommy to many.

  69. Max Ikbal says:

    I recently met a woman here in Calgary and we somehow came to discuss the topic of fertility rate of women here in Canada (which is around 1.6), and she said she was really happy with that and that the country was making “progress”. I was shocked to hear that from a SEEMINGLY smart woman. But then I thought…is it really that surprising to hear that when there are people who would go so far as to advocate forced sterilization to prevent people from having children..?!!

    In a country like Canada, where we are facing a demographic crisis — and the government actually pays mothers when they have children — it would be absurd to say that reducing population could somehow be progress.

    I find it strange that I’m usually against people who think big families are harmful to society (and those people are mostly women…and I AM A GUY for Heaven’s sake!! It should be the OTHER way around!)

    At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I will firmly state that this is a conspiracy by an elitist group of people to reduce (stabilize as they say) the population so it is better “managed”.

    I hope more and more people have 3+ children so the West can sustain it’s competitive advantage (and not just for religious reasons). Big families have ALWAYS been beneficial, whether it be for the environment, the economy, or preservation of social chesive values. Hopefully, we can revert back to the good’ol days of the “Brady Effect”

  70. wordwarrior says:

    Max,

    Very well said. Do you mind if I publish your comment as a separate post? I think it’s so helpful to have the viewpoints of different country’s citizens (and gender 😉

  71. Max Ikbal says:

    Don’t mind at all Kelly. I think you can communicate my comments in a much more articulate manner. More people NEED to know about this. And thank you kindly 😀

  72. Mrs W says:

    Mrs Kelly, I am in need of some encouragement. You have written a VERY good post, it is something I have pondered myself plenty of times.

    I have a 20 month old son, and a 9 month old son, and am 6 months pregnant with another boy. My youngest son will be born before my oldest turns 2. I am excited. My husband is excited. My church, who says they don’t believe in birth control but believe in NFP (to us it is all one and the same…trying to prevent a life) is starting to be critical. Our friends, who say they are against birth control AND NFP are “concerned” with how close together our children are for “health concerns”.

    My questions are, doesn’t God know about my health? My natural doctor has said it would be good for me not to have a baby for at least a year or so after this one because of some issues with my back. I suffer chronic, daily pain. It is actually BETTER when I am pregnant. People say that we should listen to the doctor and at least do NFP. We feel guilty for even considering it. We are definitely quiverfull minded, but are there ever times it is ok to try to prevent for a little while and not be sinning? (Actually to be honest, we tried a barrier method two or three times between my last son’s birth and this pregnancy and just felt so GUILTY!).

    We home birth so at least we don’t have the hospital and doctors breathing down our throats about birth control. But even our “supportive” friends are telling us we need to prevent, and that we are just “young and stubborn” (we’re in our mid-20’s).

    Our church is starting to call us crazy, even though they say they believe birth control is wrong, but NFP is ok.

    My husband and I are both happy leaving it up to God, but a lot of people are saying we aren’t “leaving it up to God, but are being irresponsible”. I am not keen on having a baby EVERY year and I am praying that God will allow us some spacing, but just because our kids aren’t spaced as far apart as people think they should be, that doesn’t make it wrong. God still gave us these blessings.

  73. Margaret says:

    I totally agree with this post–how ironic that in all other areas the “green” movement is going strong, but in the area of fertility, the attitude is the more chemicals, the better. Bizarre. Especially when it comes to hormonal bc, IUD’s and inserting foreign objects into one’s tubes to cause scarring and thus infertility, and the ones that essentially cause short-term infertility (with unknown effects long term, I might add 🙁 ) I have friends who are the “anti everything, save the earth, black pepper and soda will give you cancer, cruncy granola” types. Yet they will happily skip on down to Planned Parenthood for thier pills and shots and the occasional abortion, and happily promote such things being widespread thoughtout the world because babies are just *so bad* for the earth.

    ***New subject, related, but not entirely on topic***
    Something I don’t often see in debates like this (on either side) is that putting away birth control does *not* necessarily equal having 12-18 children.

    In seven years, we have never used birth control. We have 3 children, and lost another one to miscarriage. Mine are all two years apart and next time, if there is a next time, it will be 3+ years between my current youngest and the new one. What I have learned from this experience in my own life is that I am indeed not in charge of who comes into existance through me, or when. If I had my way, I’d have many more children by now. But I have realized recently that even if I am open to something good from God (babies!) I am not guaranteed anything. I have no right to be upset about that either, if I believe he is good and sovreign, as I do.

    Unfortunately, I too often run into folk on both sides who feel entitled to their fertility “happening” on their terms, raging at God over “accident” children, or raging at him over infertility. If we truly trust him than we must accept what he does in our lives whether it matches our human-wisdom ideal or not.

    Just a thought.

  74. Word Warrior says:

    Margaret,

    You make an EXCELLENT point…totally agreed.

  75. Sandy says:

    I have 8 children. The last two- I was in my 40s. They are keeping me young. I had always heard stories that having lots of children makes one look old. I find the opposite to be true. When I see pictures of huge families, I always have trouble picking out the mom. She looks as young as her teen daughters.

    Most of the rude comments I have had were from pastors and Christians. After our fourth child, our first boy was born, a lady asked me if my husband was getting fixed. I answered, “Why should we have him fixed; he isn’t broken. I don’t see any reason to have an operation on something that is obviously working like it should.” She was struck dumb.

    I breastfed all my children and it helped to naturally space my children about every 2 and a half years apart. I have also had a couple miscarriages so the furtherest apart is 3 and a half yrs.
    My husband and I saw that a lot of Christians gave God control over their finances and most other areas of their lives but they couldn’t give God control in one particular area. My husband and I made a conscience decision to let God have control of EVERY area of our lives and that included our bodies and reproduction. We let Him decide how many gifts that he wanted to give us and that number ended up to be 8.

  76. Sally says:

    I want to trust God in this area, and think it sounds great on paper, but my husband doesn’t agree. He is a true believer, as am I, but he isn’t at a place to keep allowing kids into our family (we have three, 4 and under, 25 mos. and 22 months apart). My body is already tired, my husband is tired, we are fighting, disagreeing over things, and have been working on this for a long time. I am doing studies on being a wife of noble character, learning to respect and submit more as the Bible teaches. We definitely have worldly and feminist-influenced views about children being a burden more than a blessing. Of course we love our kids and they are a blessing- but my husband has decided that we are done with 3. He is planning on having the permanent operation, but I am just so worried about future regrets. He is more than sure that 3 is enough for us. I want to trust my husband, and know he is the one accountable to God for our choices- and he is ok with that. But I’m wondering, with just knowing that much about us, what do you say? I want to believe a big family is God’s choice for us, but am not sure we can handle it, and I have to follow my husband.

  77. Jennifer says:

    “I want to trust my husband, and know he is the one accountable to God for our choices”

    I disagree, he is not accountable for your own actions.

    Great thoughts, Kelly.

  78. Phelicia says:

    I just heard the most horrible thing on the radio. Apparently to be more green, more women need to have more abortions. This is the worst thing I have ever heard about how to stop global warming which is a lie any way based on bad science. But to use the environment to promote increasing the murder of the unborn is abhorrent at the most basic level. Better to have a millstone around their necks and cast into the sea than the reward these people are getting who take the lives of our children.

    I don’t have a big family,(three girls) but if my health and finances permitted, I would have a dozen. Unfortunately that choice was taken away from me after a medical diagnosis six months after my youngest was born.

  79. Jennifer says:

    THAT’S their solution to stop global warming? More abortions? Who the devil are these insane freaks?

  80. MamaNavyBrat7 says:

    Tabitha:
    ““Children are like arrows in the hand of a mighty warrior, BLESSED is the man who’s quiver is FULL of them” it says FULL, a quiver was a pouch that held arrows and it held about a half dozen.”

    You just made my day here. We decided on Essure after I have had 2 still born children (3 1/2 months early) and 18 miscarriages. The last almost sank me and I suffered months of severe depression and suicidal thoughts. I can not mentally or physically handle more. We are left from my 3 I came into the relationship with and his 4 he came into the relationship with (the still born children were his when we dated 15 years ago; 2 of the miscarriages were his 1 before the twins 1 last year). That is a combined 7. I don’t think of the kids differently even though 4 are only here every other weekend they are all ours. In the context of a quiver holding 6 ours is then overfull. You made me smile (hard to do these days). We also chose because of the effects of hormonal bc to just not have sex until everything is healed and closed. In the midst of the procedure last friday the dr discovered so much tubal scar tissue from my losses that had we not chosen Essure we would have likely had a tubal pregnancy anyways. Sometimes God leads us to a place of peace somewhere foreign to where we ever thought we would be. I never in a million years thought I’d have a tubal of any sort but God led us there (him first, me kicking and screaming poor me) and it was a place of protection from greater risk and harm.

  81. Just found this… so I’m REALLY late… I’ll look up KC, but I still wanted to post.
    I have had 6 c-sections. The medical community has put serious fear and concern on my husband about me dying if I get pregnant again. He will not do it. We also do not believe in ‘permanant’ options. So, for now, in hopes that the medical community will chance it’s stance or our hearts about the danger, we use NFP. I know for the QF mindset, NFP is ‘wrong’. We see no other option. No sex forever doesn’t feel like the right call. Neither does putting my life in danger.

  82. Can’t figure out how to find KC.
    That was supposed to say change, not chance.

    Wanted to add: I know that many QFminded believe that we should go ahead anyway and trust the LORD with my life. That feels a lot like refusing medical help when a life is in danger to use, which we don’t agree with. While I know many don’t believe the AMA’s stance on multiple c-sections, we do. for themselvs and st

  83. Nathan Lee says:

    going green is always the best thing to do. it helps the environment a lot.~`”

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  86. […] Going Green With Everything! (Except the Womb) […]

  87. When he misbehaves will you yell that he’s a black asshole?

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