Generation Cedar

I’ll not post the other Mary Kassian videos (makes the pages load slower) as you can easily get to the other ones by clicking on the next parts from the bottom of yesterday’s clip. I strongly encourage you to watch them.

And though I’ve said it so many times before, still, proponents of feminism seem to take my stand against feminism personally.

Let me say that I believe MOST feminists think that feminism was meant for the good of women. So when I speak against it, it seems I’m “against women” or against those who claim feminism. When in fact, the opposite is true. I’m not against you, only the deception and destruction behind the movement.

After careful study of feminism, I believe with all my heart that its roots are planted in Marxism, a movement started by a MAN, and as he clearly stated, his agenda was to “get women out of the home” in order to break down the family in order to create a socialist society.

“major social transformations are impossible without ferment among the women.” –Karl Marx

He acknowledged that women had tremendous power and influence when they were training their children, supporting their husbands and strengthening their communities. He knew his agenda could not be accomplished until he weakened and/or destroyed that power.

Of course you can’t tell women that, so what happened? A movement was begun to convince women they were powerless in the home but if they could just throw off the shackles of their traditional roles, then they would be able to wield REAL power.

The lie continues, and feminism was conveniently constructed around the false premise that “women are inferior” and needed to be freed.

Unfortunately, there WERE women from history being abused. So the feminists agenda used this as a platform for their message. The truth is, the abuse wasn’t coming from a traditional, biblical view of marriage and home. Abuse exists and continues to exist (feminism has NOT reduced that abuse but increased it) because of sin and fallen man. The fact that there are more broken homes, destitute children, abandoned, abused and exploited women than there ever has been should be enough evidence to conclude that feminism didn’t deliver.

I hear feminists say, “we are only about choice…we don’t try to squelch your choice to be a mother, so why are you “against” us?”

Again, such who speak are not aware of the deeper roots of feminism. Consider this quote by feminist/socialist Simone de Beauvoir:

“No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one.”

And I said all that just to say…

I am not against the proponents of feminism. I believe most of them mean nothing but good, they are simply not aware of the full scope of the agenda. I speak against feminism only because I care about women, children and families. If you want to attack me for that, then I guess there is really nothing I could say; I’ll have to take the darts.

For some enlightening reading about the roots and history of feminism and Betty Friedan, go to Marxism and the roots of Radical Feminism

“In his recent book Perestroika, Mikhail Gorbachev reflected on 70 years of Russian turmoil: “We have discovered that many of our problems — in children’s and young people’s behavior, in our morals, culture and in production — are partially caused by the weakening of family ties.”

Fem-socialists, hell-bent on achieving a genderless society, are now scheming to repeat the same disastrous experiment in Western society. Naturally, they are hoping that you not hear the story of family destruction in Soviet Russia.

But the truth is there, waiting to be grasped by anyone who cares to see.”

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55 Responses

  1. Other than working outside the home, what other parts of feminism don’t you like?

    Do you think battered women’s shelters should close? Do you think no one should have any form of birth control (hormonal or barrier)? Should women not have equal access to colleges and universities? What about laws against sexual harassment? Do you believe that divorce when there is abuse should be difficult or impossible?

    That is just a few questions. Obviously I know that some of feminism, like equal marriage laws, conflict with Christianity. But I’m curious about some of the other stuff. Do you think feminism has done any good?

    1. Attempts by feminists and other left leaning organizations to weaken the family unit within the US, are not accidental. When the very foundation of society (family unit) are structurally weakened, the house collaspses onto itself.

      Feminists are being used. This is much less about equality than it is about political power and the destruction of the US. Western Europe is almost there.

      All politics is about power.

  2. Laura Ashley,

    Any intent on any group’s part to reduce abuse to women is something I am *for*.

    If the definition of feminism could be limited to “fighting for the value and protection of women” I would call myself a feminist.

    I encourage you to read over the article I linked to to give you a better idea of why I am so anti-feminist…not anti-woman.

  3. Karl Marx isn’t reflective of the average feminist. I mean, I could name off some Christian caused a lot of problems but that doesn’t mean you or most Christians believe as he/she does.

  4. Kim M,

    I was JUST thinking about this very thing…we think we need a movement to protect or elevate women in value when in fact, Christianity has done it all along…

    “Who can find a virtuous woman, for her price is far above rubies.”

    I don’t have to be a feminist (whose agenda destroys women under the guise of protecting them) to be for women!

    That’s the message I wish so desperately to convey.

  5. Laura,

    Karl Marx was one of many. Many of the foremothers of feminism were cohorts with Marx and his type.

    As I’ve said before, their agenda is not always buried…often they spoke boldly about their desire to destroy the family–they really believed family was bad, and as such, women needed to be removed, children were left as little more than property to be tended (and avoided) and gender distinctions needed to be erased.

    Many still believe that. It is directly opposed to what Scripture (and history) teaches us is the best thing for families and societies.

    Once again, I am FOR women, for their equality (as their value is concerned) for their protection and happiness.

    But feminism only pretends to be for those things. That’s not to say that many feminists THINK they are fighting for the right reasons, but at its core, there is destruction–it’s all around us.

    My gracious, if Gorbachev can see it, why can’t we?

  6. THANK YOU KELLY!!!! This is so needful! Everyday it seems I am faced with how much we as a culture walk around thinking things that have absolutely no basis in fact or truth. We need women such as yourself to KEEP sounding the alarm for all of us to wake up and remove the scales from our eyes and see things as they really are. thank you for not shying away from such a hot button topic. Blessings to you and yours, jen in al

  7. Kelly, your post “I’m Not Against Feminists, Only Feminism” is beautifully written.

    God has made you strong enough to come against the darts.

  8. Kelly, it’s a little like conflating abortion doctor murderers with those who are pro-life. It’s a terribly oblique relationship, you know?

    It’s not like I’m offended, you understand. You have some ideas in your head that make me scratch mine. 😉 That’s okay. But this one is kind of bizarre.

    Feminism just advocates equal rights for women. That’s the entire nutshell definition. You can add your vast conspiracy of “killing the family!” to the other vast conspiracy of scientists and evolution. I’m not a Marxist and I know absolutely no Marxist feminists. So Karl Marx was for the movement? Who cares. There are a lot of people who want to shoot abortion doctors who are pro-life! I do know many women who want to see every girl have every opportunity. We don’t hate men. We don’t hate children.

    Feminism has done an enormous amount of good. I’m sorry you can’t see that.

  9. MOD,

    We obviously just believe two different things.

    I don’t think Karl Marx was *for* the movement; I think he put it into motion. I’ve read tons of stuff from self-acclaimed feminist/marxist (you must not want to find it?)

    Feminism, I’m sure has done some good. I am FOR that good.

    But I think the damage it has done far outweighs the good. (Unlike the isolated accounts of a few nut cases here and there who kill abortion doctors–bad comparison.)

    I do NOT agree that the basic underpinning of feminism is about “equal rights for women”. I think that is the mantra behind which lies the real, destructive agenda.

    Even if you don’t agree, tell me, how do you explain the continue spiraling of the destruction of the family if feminism is good for women/society?

    Here’s another problem…we say, “it is good that a woman can now work anywhere she wants and be paid equal wage.” And we attribute that victory to the fight of feminism.

    Yippee..her children are put into day care and no one says, “wait a minute, that’s got to have negative effects”…her time is now so divided between her husband, children and work that she starts to suffer physically (no one says, “not good”…)…60% of the time her marriage will end in divorce–no one’s asking “why”…those in her community who need help that she once could offer now have to turn to government assistance which burdens all of society, still no one makes any connection.

    ALL THEY SEE IS, “She’s got a career–she’s free!” We don’t connect the dots. We care about *her* and her only. The rights for women, even among the most well-meaning feminists, have trumped the good of everyone else.

    AT ITS BEST, it is still devastating our culture. We just refuse to place the blame where it is due.

    Yes, these are generalizations, but they are widespread.

  10. MOD,

    I had an epiphany…

    You seem passionate about promoting the views of feminism, though I’m always confused why you hang out here 😉 We’re a pretty strong-headed group of women.

    Your voice could be multiplied exponentially if you got married, had children and raised them to embrace feminism ;-D

    Just to let you know, I do have a sense of humor.

  11. Dearest Kelly,
    So very glad that God is still on the throne and prayer changes things…including people’s hearts.

    You are an awesome Christian lady that blesses so many by this blog.
    God bless you with enormous strength and energy.

    It is admirable how you respond to so many with personal explanations and answers to their comments and questions. This truly must be a part of your ministry. You do this well.

    I wonder if the feminist are delighting themselves in knowing that they are occupying your time and your family has less of you because of them?

    You are a vibrant Christian woman with many blessings. You are a talented writer and the multitude of subjects you blog about with links and videos that support an excellent lifestyle are wonderful. Very helpful.

    The information is out there and if the feminist just don’t get it…well they just don’t get it and I think they like to argue about you not getting it when I know you do get it and live a more excellent way that God tells us about.

    God Bless you while dodging the darts.

  12. Mary Wollestonecraft and other proto-feminists long predate marxism. And, of course, marxism is just a way of diagnosing obvious ills in early industrial and late industrial society. Its strange to see any woman worth her salt wasting her time excoriating imaginary marxist feminists. If you don’t want feminism nothing is stopping you from submitting to your religion, or your husband, or forcing your daughters to make the same choices you do. No feminists will bust down your door to force you to be paid equally for the work you do outside the home. No feminists will force you to call a hot line if your husband abuses you. A feminist will probably call the police if your husband or you abuse your children, but probably her feminist husband and children would do the same thing.

    The main issue that lies between quiverful/titus/fundamentalist women and feminist women is that the patriarchal family and the submissive, privatized woman is a source of a lot of hidden abuse. Feminist women and men look on the family as a loving co-operative of equals not as a bond between a sumbissive and a dominant. And where individeual men, women, and children within the family suffer and try to escape–children who run away from abusive situations, wives who try to exert control over family finances, decisions, or their own lives etc… feminists historically have been there to help while the church and the men who benefit so strongly from controlling family members are there to preach submission.

    If its not your problem, I don’t see why all the hysterical anti feminist hysteria. It makes as much sense, to me, as fretting because ecuadorians do things differently from americans. Why do you care?

    I see a lot of defensiveness in your writings on the subject. It seems to me that you always need an enemy–someone in your church who has dissed you, or the idea of feminists out there who don’t respect the choices you are making, or some other person “out there” who is different from you. You have the luxury of living in a plural society where your way of life is tolerated and supported locally by like minded people and *my* way of life is tolerated and celebrated in my locale by like minded people.

    Relax and enjoy the freedom you have to be, as you see it, christ and family centered. The rest of us also would enjoy a little respect for our chosen lifestyles in which we are family centered, focused on equality and liberty for all, and generally mind our own business.


  13. Kelly, I think that you put forward a very balanced view of things. I feel I could have written this post myself; I agree completely with what you’ve said.

    Laura Ashley–things like battered women’s shelters, women’s education, contraception, laws against sexual harassment, etc. all existed (though perhaps not in the same way they exist now) prior to the Feminist Movement–often these were all executed and run by Catholic and other Christian organizations, such as religious orders of nuns (except the contraception, of course). These are not products of Feminism, per se, though Feminists used them as a part of the Movement, certainly.

    MOD – I think what Kelly is accurate in saying that Feminism was launched with a Marxist agenda–NOT “women’s rights” advocacies (these have been around for millenia in one form or another) but the Western Feminist Movement, as a political/economic force. Many women who claim the title of Feminist have no idea of the origins of this movement. They might find they really have more in common with previous groups that fought for women’s rights, rather than the “Feminist Movement” which had a very specific agenda.


  14. aimai,

    How very confused you are about what I believe (and even what you believe), and how closed your ears are to what I am saying.

    Would I be beating a dead horse to repeat, YET AGAIN, I am FOR women, equality and their protection? These things are not entitlements that only the feminists care about and are capable of protecting.

    You have a very jaded view of what feminist is and of what the biblical view of family is.

    You ask, “Why do you care?”

    I care because unlike your opinions, I believe feminism does affect all of us in a very negative way. (Yes, there is some good…but it does not outweigh the bad.)

    It is not an isolated worldview that doesn’t effect anyone else. It’s damage has entangled itself into every facet of life and that concerns me, my children my family and my culture–that is why I care.

    BTW, the “hidden abuse” you talk about is not rooted in the true, biblical model of the family. Where women and children are being abused, there is nothing of God’s design there.

    Try reading my post a little more slowly and actually listen to what I say. And if you can’t do that, please don’t comment.

  15. No one is bashing, Kim. We’re discussing. I think the phrase,”Feminists are so blind…” is a little more bashing and condescending. But I digress.

    Kelly, I can see you do have a sense of humor! Particularly because you lead your resources about Betty Friedan back to this fairly insane site called the Equal Justice Foundation with a particularly rancid agenda:

    “Note that about half of the hundreds of married men who have contacted the Equal Justice Foundation have been charged with domestic violence or abuse after finding their wives were having an affair. Allegations of domestic violence or abuse are a standard tactic in a divorce today with virtually no recourse for the husband. Under current laws such false allegations are standard as they give the adulterous wife the house, the car, the kids, the bank account, and anything else she wants with no questions asked, i.e., due process is a thing of the past. She will also almost certainly receive child support even if the child(ren) prove not to be her husband’s. And there is no penalty for her perjury.”

    Uh huh. Now that’s funny! Or, you know, not. I seriously doubt the validity of anything this site has to say.

    Bethany, you know in looking through my father’s old yearbook (he is a graduate of CUNY – a free NY college), women did attend back in the 40’s. However, they could ONLY become teachers or nurses. That’s all. What did you study? I’m curious. Because I bet a whole bunch of loud women opened those doors for you. You’re quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater because you feel it’s important for a woman to be home. That’s fine – I’m not disagreeing that children need their parents around them. But I know plenty of men that are excellent at child-rearing. I don’t think it is EXCLUSIVELY biological.

    And Kelly – what if your daughter has a dream of being a doctor? A supreme court justice? Do you tell her that God has commanded her not to? I’m curious.

    “Even if you don’t agree, tell me, how do you explain the continue spiraling of the destruction of the family if feminism is good for women/society?”

    Because, as I keep repeating, Correlation does NOT equal Causation.

    And Deanna….I’m still praying for you, honey. Heh.

  16. Word Warrior,
    Oddly enough I read your posts very closely and I care about you as a person. I think you are a wonderful person who doesn’t begin to give herself enough credit for all that she achieves. But I also think you don’t begin to grasp just how much pain and confusion you express, on a daily basis, when you can’t get your home life to track with your imagined perfect christian mommy life.

    If that sounds condescending to you imagine how the rest of us feel–even women from your own faith community–who get this kind of message from you all the time.

    But that’s ok, what I came to post was that of course “feminists” aren’t responsible for the fact that mere social equality won’t produce an utopia any more than your branch of the christian church is responsible for the fact that the myriad polygamous christian right wing sects (mormon and para-mormon, for example, as well as simply idiosyncratic byproducts of guys who have read too much of the bible on their own) have exploited and demeaned the kinds of families you want to build. Those families consider themselves Christian with a capital C they:
    promote homeschooling
    low or no literacy for females
    early marriage
    multiple births
    eschew public school and public spaces (like malls)
    avoid modern health care
    avoid modern medicine
    avoid entanglement with modern government
    avoid or reject tax paying as immoral
    consider outsiders inherently ungodly and dangerous
    believe the world is on a downward spiral instead of pretty much burbling along as it always has.

    Lots of the most devoted members of these little family cults seem to come from disordered or unhappy secular families and that produces a sense that the religious family is the natural refuge of the unhappy.

    Of course the flip side is also true: people flee from these confined religious families in the opposite direction. Among polygamous mormon communities young boys are thrown away because there aren’t enough brides for them. Men are also encouraged to marry their own girl relatives and daughters to build up the right kind of christ like patriarchal family.

    I don’t blame your brand of christianity for these aberrations but they are certainly very prevalent in American society. As much or more than your fantasy of the mean old feminist whose demand that her husband not beat her seems to infringe on your harmony so much.

    I really got a kick out of your side observation that you train your children to “hold the door open” for women because that gets feminists upset. Girl. I send my children to a feminist/progressive school where we ask the children to hold the door open for *everyone* behind them, men women and children, because we think its weird to let the door slam in someone’s face because they are of one gender or another.


  17. Deanna had given wise counsel. Kelly has hands down shown more grace and wisdom in this discussion.

    As far as my question posed in a previous post:
    “So… the question is… do you believe that Christ is your Creator and that He holds the key to your personal contentment and liberation? Yes or No”

    … Mother of Dog, whose username admits she deeply desires to be the mother off something, and her followers have made her claim!

    Matthew 7:27 “But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw [it] to the little dogs.”

    Spoken with boldness and deepest regret.

  18. MOD,

    I had already deleted my comment to Aimai. I do not want to sound unkind.Perhaps the word “bashing” is a little strong. LOL, but… I just don’t see “why” people would come here and read KNOWING they will not agree and then say things like “The rest of us also would enjoy a little respect for our chosen lifestyles in which we are family centered, focused on equality and liberty for all, and generally mind our own business.”

    I just don’t get it.

    I mean, goodness, stick around… maybe somehow the Lord will touch your hearts through this blog. 🙂

    I ask you about your comment though…
    “Correlation does not equal causation”.

    If in this case that is true, then what do *YOU THINK* has caused the downward spiral? Just wondering.

  19. Deanna had given wise counsel. Kelly has hands down shown more grace and wisdom in this discussion.

    As far as my question posed in a previous post:
    “So… the question is… do you believe that Christ is your Creator and that He holds the key to your personal contentment and liberation? Yes or No”

    … Mother of Dog, whose username admits she deeply desires to be the mother of something, and her followers have made their claim!

    Matthew 7:27 “But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw [it] to the little dogs.”

    Spoken with boldness and deepest regret.

  20. For fear that my last post will be misunderstood. I am not calling anyone a dog.

    In context this Scripture explains that those who do not follow Christ will simply not be able to appreciate the sweet taste of His Truths.

  21. MOD – I studied acting and writing. Neither of which did the Feminist movement open for me, incidentally. Also, I’m not talking exclusively about America when I say that women were educated before the Feminist movement (though granted, the gates were always harder for them to open than men). I’m speaking in a more global sense. Of course, there have been times when NEITHER men NOR women were really educated, unless they were part of the aristocracy or members of the clergy. However, there have been instances of women’s education throughout history in many different nations. I’m not talking about institutionalized college education, per se, but then, that sort of education was closed off to most people, regardless of gender until very recently.

  22. This post seems to be arguing that feminists are gullible dupes of some broad social agenda beyond our control. You don’t think we are bad, just that we are stupid.

    Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading your post:

    1) I don’t agree that Marx is responsible for feminism. Mary Wollstonecraft pre-dates Marx. I also think that feminism flows naturally from 18th century democratic values. Feminism just takes those values to their logical conclusion.

    2) But even if Karl Marx was a feminist, so what? Adolph Hitler loved dogs. Does that mean loving dogs is a bad thing?

    3) Thinking people assess ideas on their own merits, rather than on who said them. If I hear a good idea, I don’t care if it came from Karl Marx, James Dobson, or the Queen of England. So the fact that Karl Marx may have contributed something to feminism doesn’t bother me in the least, even though I may disagree with many aspects of Marxism. (Not that I know too much about Marxist thought, and I suspect you don’t either.)

    4) I was amused by your emphasis on the fact that Karl Marx is a MAN!!! I am not sure what you intend the relevance of this to be. Either you expect feminist to go scurrying away from Marx’s horrible man cooties, or you are trying to argue that women are too dumb to even come up with their own liberation movement. Neither is an accurate representation of feminism.

    I don’t have time to read the comments right now, so I apologize if I am repeating what others have said. I am not personally offended, nor do I intend to personally attack you — just your argument, which I appreciat you posting. It is by expressing our ideas publicly that dialogue can begin.


  23. Misty, Mother of Dog is just a JOKE. It’s a play on Mother of God, as Bethany is familiar with I’m sure! (I do love my little doggie though). Why is not wanting to be a mother so incredibly hard for you to get? If I had wanted to have children, I would have had them. I’m laughing….you’re awfully sweet though. Thanks for worrying about me. 😉

    Kelly reflects your beliefs, of course you see her as having more grace. Now I think Animai has made some incredibly intelligent points.

    “So… the question is… do you believe that Christ is your Creator and that He holds the key to your personal contentment and liberation? Yes or No”

    If I did, would that mean I would need to have your exact lifestyle?

    Bethany, of course it’s true what you say about aristocracy and education. But it was infinitely harder for women. Yes, women were educated in the 1300s. In secret. In fear. Women went to college to study medicine in the 1920’s and were roundly decried for it. Isn’t it great that they can study medicine now and be encouraged? I think so. A woman doctor saved my good friend’s life. Two male doctors missed a diagnosis (nothing against male doctors, you understand. I’m just saying the woman was a smart cookie.)

    Do I want to buy into a world where there are NO woman doctors? No explorers? No pilots? Do you?

  24. *Applauds*

    Oh nicely put, Elizabeth. You are absolutely right – I think this dialogue is fascinating.

  25. I would also mention that the alleged motives of those advocating feminism are also irrelevant.

    Here is another dog example: Say I tell you to get a dog, because I bear you some malice and I am hoping that you will get fleas or that the dog will distract your children from their schoolwork. That doesn’t mean that getting a dog is actually a bad thing for you. You can take my suggestion and make an intelligent decision to get the dog and find that the dog is in fact a positive addition to your life.

    Similarly, even if Marx promoted feminism out of some motive we disagree with (such as structuring a socialist state), that doesn’t prove that feminism is a bad idea.


  26. Thanks Mother of Dog. I put the dog examples in just for you.
    I am looking forward to reading everyone else’s comments later on!


  27. MOD – While some women did study in secret (and were barred from practicing certain professions, such as medicine) I can say confidently that this was not always the case. Many medieval orders of nuns were founded with the explicit purpose to educate young women and girls of all classes and they did so publicly and with the sanction of the Church. I agree with you that things were always harder for women. I am so glad that women are able to receive an education now. Personally, I really don’t like male doctors–especially OBGyns. I’m sorry, but I don’t want any man telling me he “knows how I feel” while I’m in labor–and that includes my husband. (No offense to anyone who is or who uses a male OB; just my personal preference.) I have always seen female physicians (from birth!) and now go to a birth center staffed entirely by women (from the midwives to the receptionist).

    I’m not saying that I don’t think these things are WONDERFUL! What I am saying is that I wish they had (and believe they could have) come about without the Feminist Movement. Not without courageous, outspoken women, but without the official Feminist Movement as a political/economic force. In the same way that Dr. Martin Luther King went about things differently than Malcolm X did, I believe that there have been women’s rights groups that have fought WELL for women’s education and other necessary and valuable reforms; the Feminist Movement helped to accomplish or expand some of these, I just don’t agree with the methods they used or the underlying ideology of some of the Movements most famous proponents.

  28. I hear you, Bethany. (And do you like the current insane weather here in Seattle? I’m dumbfounded by it!) But that’s a little like saying that you wish that WW II had been fought and won without any loss of American soldiers. That’s a complete revision of what DID happen. History cannot be dealt with in quite that way.

    I can appreciate that not everyone agrees with every Feminist principle or method. I’m not sure that I do. But not liking the particular methods that SOME women used in trying to get across important points is a little different from declaring it invalid as an idea.

    I’m not sure where the Official Feminist Movement is that you refer to – I don’t really think there is one. Even NOW is not the “official feminist movement.” There are many women believing many different things, but the one link I see is a belief that women should be treated with respect for their intelligence and their gifts – with equality, if you will. If you believe this, I think you really are a Feminist. 🙂

  29. MOD- Seriously, this weather is like something out of Armageddon! It is so bizarre. I definitely hear you: you can’t pick and choose history, history happened the way it happened and you can’t undo it. Which is why I have no problem participating in some of the freedoms and priveleges won for me by Feminists or praising those women who I think went about things admirably because they truly wanted to defend the dignity of women rather than push some polictical agenda.

    When I refer to the Feminist Movement (and I believe I speak for Kelly here, as well) is the Western Movement, broken into three “waves” (the third of which is what we are currently experiencing) that began in the 1700s. Wikipedia has a good overview here:

    When I speak out against Feminism, I am referring specifically to this Movement, not to all women who have advocated for women’s rights all through history. The first wave of this Feminist Movement began, as you said, on many of the same principles of Democracy, having been born from the Enlightenment. I am actually rather a fan of many First Wave feminists. Unfortunately, after the dawn of Darwinism (and don’t worry, I’m not a Creationists) and Marxism, a lot of Movements became corrupted by utopian thinking, which undermined the image and dignity of humanity (think Blank Slate theory, Behaviorism, “Big Government”, etc.). Feminism, sadly, was also shaped by these pervasive yet subtle ideologies and was wielded by the politically powerful to push utopian agendas, unbeknownst to many of the laypeople “on the ground.” I’m not saying anyone is “stupid,” but it does take some digging to find these roots in movements like Feminism because our textbooks, etc. are published by people corporations who also have a vested interest in these sorts of utopian ideologies.

    As you said, there is a thread of “belief that women should be treated with respect for their intelligence and their gifts” woven through all advocacy for women, including the three waves of Feminism. However, where I would differ with this is that you define it as “equality.” The idea of “Equality of the Sexes” did begin with the more Marxist/utopian bent in the Feminist Movement (often classified as Second Wave Feminism), which appeared in the 19th century. Before that, many “feminists” (not of the official Movement) were fighting for EQUITY. Equity of the sexes acknowledges that women and men are fundamentally DIFFERENT, though of equal intelligence, dignity, and worth. Where I believe Feminism went wrong was in trying to deny any difference between men and women and trying to make men and women THE SAME. More and more, Feminists themselves are waking up to the lie that this is–and the dire consequences of trying to assert equality over equity. This sort of revival is, in part, what has begun the third wave of Feminism, and I think it’s a very good step in the right direction.

    So, while I would say that I am certainly pro-woman, I would not label myself as a Feminist–because I don’t want to be bound up with the politics and ideologies that have corrupted what I believe to be a vitally important piece of human advocacy and history. It may seem like splitting hairs, but to me, it’s very important.


  30. Bethany,

    I don’t think feminists say that there are no differences between the sexes. That would be absurd, wouldn’t it?

    Obviously, there are physical differences. There may also be behavioral and aptitude differences. But feminists think that:

    (1) Individual differences matter more than group differences.

    (2) There is a lot of overlap between the sexes, with the exception of reproductive function by which the sexes are defined. For example, men are generally taller but individual women are often taller than individual men.

    (3) Most differences are socialized or exaggerated by socialization. With the exceptions of certain obvious physical differences, we can’t really know what sex differences are innate and which are socialized. We get bombarded with training on what our culture considers correct behavior for our sex from the moment we are born. (For example, a baby girl might be held more gently while a baby boy is tossed up in the air. A little girl is told she is pretty and will be a good mommy some day. A little boy is told he is a tough guy and will be a great athlete. Guess what qualities each will care the most about while growing up?)

    (4) Some general tendencies between the sexes get really exaggerated or are interpreted to dictate how women should behave. A classic example of this would be in the area of exercise. Men are generally bigger and stronger. For many years, people thought that meant that women were incapable of strenuous exercises or that it was inappropriate for women to do strenuous exercise. It turned out that women are physically capable of more than anyone realized and that we get a tremendous health and psychological benefit by participating in sports. So just because there is a difference, we have to be careful about drawing overly broad conclusions about taht difference.

    In other words, just because there are differences, it doesn’t follow that every traditional gender role is innate or good or applies to every woman.


  31. Kelly,

    I always enjoy hearing what you have to say about feminism. I love how you dive into the roots of feminism instead of addressing what modern woman “think” feminism is about, or what they personally believe while calling themselves feminists. However, I’m not sure I’m going to be visiting for awhile. There seems to be one particular person who seems bent on disproving everything you say, and it’s getting old. It’s frustrating to read the comments, and even more frustrating reading comments trying to deal with what she says, knowing she is only going to twist and rip what they say. MOD you know I am addressing you. I only have to ask, why do you continue to visit here? Do you like stiring up trouble? Healthy debate is one thing, what you are doing, I believe, goes beyond that. I feel like I am dealing with a few preschoolers fighting with each other over what color the sky is. I’m leaving now, I have my own preschoolers to attend to.

  32. I’m sorry you feel that way, Rachel. But I’m not twisting or ripping. I’m inviting you to ponder how someone else thinks. I’m intrigued how others think. It’s really that simple. I’ve acknowledged when I agree with Kelly as well – it’s happened.

    Considering what a really calm and soft-spoken person I am in the “real world” – I’m kind of amused by the notion that I’m somehow throwing spears on here! Just because I disagree doesn’t mean you don’t have the right to live as you see fit.

  33. Kelly, I promise I will not turn this into a cat fight, but I just have to ask Mother of Dog who she’s praying to on my behalf.

    Bow wow, Mother of God. Greetings to you from planet Earth.
    Who do you pray to anyways? Sure hope it’s not one of those trees that your dog has used.

    Seriously though, and I do have a serious side to me, MOD who do you pray to? (Since you said you were still praying for me, honey.)

    Before I sign off, I want to tell you a short story about a young woman that I recently met.

    Though she’s small in stature, she has a smart mouth that she learned to use since she came from the east coast around Rhode Island. She’s witty.
    Has a sense of humor.
    Likes to write.
    Loves engaging in stimulating conversation that rocks the boat.
    She’s determined to bow down to no one.
    Because she was seriously hurt by a loved one when she was a child, she’s a scared little girl in a woman’s body.
    The wise cracks come in handy.
    She hates the dark and sleeps with a night light on.
    She’s miserable when she gets a bad haircut. If she weren’t so stubborn, I think she would admit that her hair is her crown of glory, because when it’s styled just like she wants, wow she feels extra pretty. Since she was raised a heathen, I’m not sure anybody has ever told her that her hair is her crown of glory as stated in the Bible.
    Though she didn’t always get along with her mom, she misses her so. All her mom had to do was look at her a certain way and she knew that she was misbehaving and had better straighten up.
    She has a sister, but it’s not the same. She misses her mom.
    This years Mother’s Day will be difficult for her.
    Her Mother passed away a short time ago and you know what? She’s confused and upset because even her Rabbi couldn’t give her a comforting answer to console her as to what happens when a person dies. Being Jewish, there wasn’t much talk about the reality of heaven or hell.
    She’s single.
    Secretly she’d like the comfort of having a special man marry her so that there would be a covenant between the two of them that no man would put asunder. Someone that meant it when they call her SWEETHEART for keeps.
    She has no children to love and there’s an ache in her heart, but she won’t admit it to anyone.
    Because she’s a scared little girl in a woman’s body she keeps forming relationships with men that don’t want to get married, because they don’t understand what commitment is all about anyhow.
    So she jokes about fornicating as if she’s just a dog in heat.
    She’s convinced herself that it’s safer this way.
    Perhaps you know this woman.
    Perhaps somebody will tell her she has great value and God desires a close and personal relationship with her, because He’d like her to learn that there’s a better and more excellent way to live one’s life while here on earth. He’d like her to actually know the meaning of love. A love that will never and I mean never leave her.
    He’d like her to know that she’s not an animal, never has been, but she’s precious in His sight.
    He’d like her to know that she has an eternal soul that needs a touch from Him to complete her.
    He’d like her to know that at this time in her life, she’s in want and she needs to crawl up into His lap and weep til there are no more tears.
    ABBA DADDY, tell me the story of Jesus.

  34. Oops,
    I was thinking of what Mother of Dog said was a joke about her name and it was a play on words…mother of god.
    I meant to say Mother of Dog, not
    Mother of God.
    Hope I get this edit in before serious misunderstandings post.

  35. Wow, Deanna – Thanks for reading my blog. I hope you enjoyed it! I’m seriously very flattered; I’m not joking. (But I’m not from Rhode Island. I’m from LONG Island. That’s in New York.) And yes I do worry about bad haircuts. Totally cop to it. I know, SINFUL.

    You’ll note from my blog that there is a man in my life who loves me very much – so no need to worry on my account. 🙂 But in point of fact, my dog doesn’t fornicate. He’s fixed.

    What are you up about it here? That I’m vulnerable at times? That I miss my mother? Believing that she’s in heaven would not make it different, Deanna. I find that a truly comic notion.

    And I’m a Jew. I don’t believe in Jesus Christ as Lord (although I do think he was a great man) and I never will. So who do I pray to? A heathen like me? I pray to a power that is beyond Jesus. I pray to the goodness in all people. I pray to the amazing resources of science, which is far more wonderous than any “God” figure. I pray that you will see when you are cruel to others (say, gay people) and understand the error of this. I believe people are basically good you see.

    I’m not a scared little girl, Deanna. I think everyone who actually knows me agrees that I’m pretty freakin’ strong. But I think YOU are scared of many things. I think you’re scared of leaving your box of self-righteousness. I think you’re scared of stepping out of your belief systems. I think you’re scared of anyone who disagrees with you.

    So I continue to pray for you. I hope that’s okay. 😉

  36. MOD,
    Reread the short story, will ya?
    I mention that the woman is fornicating, not the dog being fixed.
    The woman is like a dog in heat.

    Perhaps we can chat sometime about homosexuals.
    Perhaps we can talk about this self righteous stuff you mentioned.
    Perhaps we can chat about alot of things sometime in the near future.

    Let’s talk after Mother’s Day has come and gone.

    My dear, yes, you are a scared little girl in a woman’s body that’s confused and doesn’t want to bow down to authority. You’ve been hurt.

    I am very familiar with Liberal thinkers for I was one for many years.

  37. Deanna, I think that’s a really bold/presumptuous statement to make about a person you have never met in real life.

    My dear, yes, you are a scared little girl in a woman’s body that’s confused and doesn’t want to bow down to authority. You’ve been hurt.

    I am very familiar with Liberal thinkers for I was one for many years.”

    So do you consider all/most liberal thinkers to be children in adult bodies?

  38. “But in point of fact, my dog doesn’t fornicate. He’s fixed.” Ah, thanks MOD for injecting something seriously funny into a heated situation 🙂 I laughed a lot. Don’t know why it struck me as so particularly funny, but it did.

    Question: Can a Jew be a “heathen?” Wouldn’t that make Christians heathens, too, since the Shma is as true for us as it is for the Jews: same God, now and forever! 🙂

  39. mrvelocity,
    No, I don’t think this about all liberal thinkers.
    This comment for MOD.
    And out of respect for Kelly’s blogspot, I’m not going to get into a long harry conversation about this. I’ve already taken up enough room on Kelly’s site.
    As for not having ever met a person and having a say about them, many people have already done this. We all have an opinion and like MOD did, she had an opinion about me as well and she doesn’t know me either.
    It’s a very liberal way of thinking. Hey Baby it’s alright for me to have an opinion, but not you? Door swings both way.

    Have you ever heard of people that the Lord actually gives a spiritual gift to and you wonder well now how’d they know that about me? I didn’t post that on my blog.

  40. A dog in heat! I have to tell my boyfriend that one! Deanna, you’re making me laugh now. I realize you’re coming at this with a good heart, and I appreciate it. You want to bring me to Jesus. You mean well. Also any time someone calls me a little girl in any way at my age – I kind of love it! But you know as Woody Allen once put it: “I just love being reduced to a cultural stereotype.” 🙂

    What does Mother’s Day have to do with any of this? I’m stumped. Do you think I cry on Mother’s Day? What? And when did I say you couldn’t have an opinion? You’re even free to express it on MY blog. I’m just not sure why you feel I am hurt and wounded and scared when you don’t actually know me. That doesn’t strike me as a valid opinion. By the way, I don’t even lump everyone together as Evangelical Christians – I read Terry @ breathing grace and she is the most Conservative of Conservatives and I love her writing and her thinking. I think she’s terrific. And as I’ve previously mentioned, I have dear friends that are Fundamentalist Christians.

    This is just a blog, Deanna. Not a Holy War. I really have no opinion about you. I hope you’re as happy on your path as I am on mine.

  41. Mother of Dog,

    Could you explain more about your name and how it is a joke?

    I suppose there are many of us who are not getting it?

    No, you would not have to live like me if you accepted Christ. You would live like a liberated women free from your sin, shame and heart-ache. He would offer you more understanding of the world around you than what you have now.

    I wouldn’t want you to be like me because I am a sinner too. I just admit that I am and that am in need of a Savior.

    “The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.” Proverbs 9:10

    So you are a Jew, but you do not pray to God of the OT, the Creator of the World? How can this be? Forgive me, but you seem very confused.

    Why do you read Kelly’s blog? I ask because you seem to represent the opposite of what she believes. I think you owe it to her to explain why you spend such energy here.

    One more thing, I got the same impression Deanna derived from your blog.

  42. “No, you would not have to live like me if you accepted Christ. You would live like a liberated women free from your sin, shame and heart-ache. He would offer you more understanding of the world around you than what you have now.”

    I need to clarify, there are a variety of lifestyles that are God-fearing and you would Not have to live my exact style of choice.

    What we would have in common is that we would both be free from the burdens of our sin and shame.

    There are many godly women of the Bible who are single, but your not EXACTLY single as you proclaim to be are you…

  43. Misty, I’m not a practicing Jew. I would describe myself as Agnostic. We aren’t unusual, you know. If you’re getting all that from my blog, I’m an awfully good writer. What I get from your blog is that you’re a way better cook than I am. Can I come to dinner sometime? 😉

    I don’t think I owe Kelly anything, honestly. I don’t mean that in any hostile way – but what’s so wrong about adding a dissenting voice to a chorus? I don’t like when she declares what “Feminism” is or how everyone SHOULD live. So I say so.

    Sorry, I just don’t believe in sin. I believe in kindness. I don’t know that all of you are always kind in the name of Jesus – even to each other. Worth thinking about. And I don’t feel “shame, sin or heartache” that is in need of your Savior. I feel that I am human, with as many pluses and minuses as anyone else. If it helps you to believe in a God, I am very pleased that you do.

    Are you all through casting the first stone now? 😉

  44. No I’m not EXACTLY single. I’m in a wonderful committed relationship with a very wonderful man.

    Why, did you want to fix me up with someone? I mean, besides Jesus? Sorry, I’m taken. 😉 Moses got there first.


  45. Thanks for answering my questions, but you missed one…
    Why do you read Kelly’s blog and spend so much energy on it?

    Yes, Christians can be harsh, but we aren’t exactly being schooled by non-Christians. Again, we are harsh people who admit that we need a Savior.

    Anyway, I am moving on…

    P.S. I am a horrible cook, and I loathe being in the kitchen! My kids think burned food is normal and they have acquired a taste for it. But you can come over had share pizza with us. 🙂

  46. Kelly,
    I just want to say that I love your blog. Please keep discussing these issues – you ARE helping people! 🙂

    I’ve always thought of myself as an “anti-feminist” (excuse the poor terminology), but I’ve learned so much by reading your and other blogs about this topic. I have realized that a lot of what I thought about womanhood was completely based off of what society had been telling me. Even though I claimed to dislike feminism, I was still thinking like one in many ways.

    I’ve learned so much about Biblical womanhood in the past year. I feel like I’m getting my marriage off to a great start! I have also greatly appreciated knowing that there are other women out there like me who think that there’s more to life than trying to climb the corporate ladder.

  47. I dont think we can say “Christianity has elevated women all along”. Jesus, *did*, christianity has failed.

  48. I cant even finish reading. Honestly, if some of you here cant see the manner in which you are calling yourself christians, and REPEATEDLY using shaming tactics and denigration of character….its really perplexing. MOD and aimai have said NOTHING anymore sarcastic than anyone else here, period.

    People are free to visit here, and people are free to not visit. choices. We have choices. I see a lot of manipulation via words going on here, and personally I do not see how anything MOD, aimai, or anyone else says, though disagreeing, they arent outright SLAMMING anyone.

  49. You know what is really heartwrenching? This isnt meant to be a guilting tactic. But, it is true for me at least.

    When I am treated badly by Christians especially, it gets confusing because that person supposedly has God flowing through them, and is an advocate for Christ. So I am more sensitive to harshness (which in my opinion is not much like the harshness Jesus used…at all)because we are to receive blessings from Christ through others. I almost sense it is *God* himself rejecting me when people talk like this. This isnt my issue. I feel its normal to feel that way. It stings terribly when a brother or sister talks callously to us.

    As for all the questions to MOD about why she hangs out here (she gets them often), the same could be said to those who answer MOD.

    People hang out here for different reasons. Perhpas some would inquire as to why like minded people would hang out here, when they already know these principles anyway. But I would never say that, I figure each person is grown up enough to figure out for themselves if they find it profitable to hang out on a certian message board, or NOT. We cant read minds, hearts, or diagnos a person.

  50. I’d like to remind people reading here that Christians are still just people. Christians are not “perfect” people they are “saved” people. Only 1 perfect person have EVER walked on this earth and He was crucified for your sins.

    Christians have accepted the free offer of Jesus Christ and so can you. Recognize that you are sinner doomed to hell – according to God’s word. Confess your sin and ask Jesus to save you then find someone to baptize you.

    All that being said – Christians may not always word things well and we may even get vehement when we discuss things; sometimes we make huge mistakes. Like I said – not “perfect” but “saved”. But I’d be willing to bet that most of the comments were truly made out of love and a desire to help.

    Overpopulation is a lie from the pit of hell Anne and Satan is the father of lies. 😉

  51. Bethany, if I haven’t told you before, you’re awesome! I so hear everything you say, especially about male OBGYN’s, and you say it excellently.

  52. Kelly, thanks for your open-mindedness and excellent explanations. I think you’ve expressed yourself here perfectly.

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