Generation Cedar

A lot of times I just say things before I realize I’ve said them…but this time I didn’t regret it later.

My husband treated us to dinner at a local restaurant last night. Imagine the place is divided into two rooms, with a half wall in the middle. One side is the bar, and the other is, well, not the bar.

The only thing I saw when we walked in (my husband was helping little ones behind so somehow I made it in before him) standing ON TOP of the middle wall, were two life size “cardboard people”. You know what I’m talking about…they always catch you off guard because they look real. One was facing our side, and one was facing the bar…both were visible from either side.

And it wasn’t just any life-sized person…they were identical…it was a blown-haired, brunette beauty with hardly any clothes on. Seriously. She had a teeny mini-dress, accentuating her long legs and 6-inch spiked heels, then the top of her dress..I’m sorry, there was no top. The sleeves…I mean, well anyway, lots of cleavage. There.

Just as bad as her dress was her provocative posture–let’s just say she wasn’t standing like a lady. She was the Budweiser girl, if you’re wondering why she was even there.

So, I walk in, and as soon as our waitress showed us the table (right next to the life-sized thing–she would literally be towering over our table), I pointed to it and said, “Um, could you take that down…that’s pornography and it’s offensive.”

She said, “Really, you think so?”

“Yes, I do.”

I was hoping she would save my husband and sons the view, but she had to go talk to the manager. He [unhappily] came over and, you won’t believe this, turned the effigy ever so slightly (like a 20 degree turn) as if she was going to suddenly become invisible.

We were all still standing because we had decided that we would leave if he didn’t take them down, so then he looks at us, after the “turn” to see if we approved….we nodded in the negative.

So then, he said, “it’s a part of the bar”. To which I replied, “Then put her in the bar.” (Words are just coming out at this point….I’m not really proud to admit that.)

He finally picks her (them) up and throws them over the wall, to which we gave a satisfied look. By the way, there was only one other family in the building, and then right after we had the offense removed, I couldn’t believe it, another family with seven children walked in. (You know they’re “one of you” so you just give a mutual nod and smile.)

My point, seriously, is that I think if every Christian who walked in that place would express their discontent with the pornography, it wouldn’t be worth his trouble to have to relocate her each time.

If we really understood what the sensual, visual stimulus does to boys and men, we (as a Christian community) would fight it so much harder.

We go to the ends of the earth to keep from offending others (even at the cost of their souls, perhaps) while we allow our own families to be offended because we’re afraid of offending the restaurant manager!

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50 Responses

  1. I know this is not funny, but I’m sitting here laughing because I can just see your expression and hear you saying that.

    I’m proud to call you my friend!

  2. Hey Kelly, I was at this same restaurant last Thursday and I can totally vouch for the cardboard cut-outs! My daughter and I went for our “weekly fix” :). I was seated with my back to the offending advertisement and once I looked around, then said to my daughter, Wow, I didn’t know two naked women were staring you down!!No, I did not ask for them to be removed. Can you say whimp? But, I am so proud to have a friend who is so bold to ask for me!! I can’t wait to see if they put them back up or not! Weren’t you afraid they were going to spit in your food?!!? LOL Just Kidding!

  3. I know this isn’t funny, but have to admit the images you painted made me laugh. You GO, girl! I’m proud of you.

    And why WEREN’T the bar girls in the bar? Why were they visible to the family side? That…wha? Yuck.

  4. “(You know they’re “one of you” so you just give a mutual nod and smile.)”

    LOL! x10! Good for you!

  5. Good for you, Kelly!

    I’m a bit of a cynic, though. Bet the ladies were back up the second you and the other family left. Sex sells.

  6. What guts! 😉 We all need to do that or at least be able to stand up to the hyper-sexual “advertising” in our society. Like you said, if they are for the bar, put them on the bar side! Duh. If people are in there with their families (obviously not interested in the ‘bar’ part of the establishment), why bombard them with the Bud ad?

    You’re quite a lady! =)

  7. SUSAN–

    You know, I did have a fleeting “spit in my food” thought when they brought it out 😉

    But that chimachanga was just as tasty as ever!

  8. I wasn’t quite sure whrer you were going with this title at first. LOL! Bless you for your boldness, Kelly!

  9. 2 families with 7 children in one restaurant? They must be doing something right in your part of the country. There’s about 7 kids total in the city I live in and it’s not a small town! (kidding, but it seems like it)

  10. I recently informed the manager of a local store that the music playing over the speakers was pornographic and if it persisted I would not be bringing my children into his store- I would shop elsewhere. It remains to be seen what will happen. Likely nothing, since I got the standard ‘it comes from the home office’ and in other words it’s not my responsibility. But, I’m still glad I said something. It was an example to my teenager, who was with me, and really, I think families put up with far too much in hopes of not rocking the boat. We could use a tidal wave of decency in this country.

  11. Sandy,

    Agreed…I think we misunderstand the gospel, Jesus’ life and the instructions He left behind.

    It is not ignoring the loving side of Jesus to recognize the holy side of him too. We lean too far on the “gentleness, meekness and peace-making” side, which in reality, is only a partial gospel.

    “What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.

    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able tyo destroy both soul and body in hell.”Matthew 10:26

    “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

    We must love, love, love with all our hearts, but we must HATE sin even more than we hate offending. I know the balance, but we need to be “not ashamed of the gospel”…

    In the words I’ve quoted before of Martin Luther, “Here I stand, I can do no other”.

  12. Bravo indeed. I thank God for your boldness, obedience to Him, and refusal to be conformed into accepting pornographic culture.

    Now, if only more husbands could act like that. I think that if men in particular gave that message more often, then it would be even more effective.

  13. Hi, just my 2 cents, we do not run into this much as a family because we would not take the children to a rest. that was a bar as well as rest.

    ALthough it was wonderful you spoke up, what more could we expect from a bar type rest.?

  14. Hi! I clicked over from Life in a Shoe.

    I applaud you for doing this also. And, good for you for leaving!

    I always turn the magazines over at the checkout line that have half naked people on them! I hope I will be as bold to say something if the need arises.

    Many blessings,
    Jennifer 🙂
    mommy to 7 (one in utero)

  15. Homakerang,

    There may be a valid point there…however, in the past, I hadn’t noticed anything offensive AND, flimsy as it may be as an excuse, we live in a town where this is the ONLY real restaurant. With gas the way it is, we chose to stay local.

    Furthermore, if we avoided going any place with offensive sights, we would have to stay home. I’m more of an advocate for speaking up and cleaning up any public place to make it suitable for families.

    But I get your point.

  16. When I first met my husband (10 years ago) I wondered why he had to make such “a stink” over everything Biblically offensive. He told me that it was the Christian’s job to BOTH boldly speak the Truth AND boldy oppose evil.

    He went on to explain that in our culture the pagan liberal spouts freely and without reproach on every street corner as the conservative Christian stands by quietly. But if a conservative Christian ever speaks the Truth, mouths fly open in opposition.

    Why is it that “Joe Pagan” will both freely spout his dogma and quickly oppose that which offends him, while “Joe Christian” will do neither???

    Thanks for making “a stink,” Kelly! My husband and I are right there with you! 🙂

    Tina

  17. Oh how refreshing to see others speaking up. About 9 months or so ago there was an indecent poster display in the check out at Walmart. I told a lower manager on duty about it, and a few days later it was still there. So I asked to speak to the head manager. I was told I would have to wait..blah, blah, blah, and I told them that it was fine, I’d wait. When he came I had all 4 of my girls there and my little son. I told him that it was offensive to have such a display in the checkout where we could not avoid it. I told him that we purposly do not visit the back section where the posters are, etc. I told him I make multiple trips to his store monthly and I wanted the display moved. I was shocked that he sayed he would get right on it, and he ment it. Immediately he had someone come and get the display, and it never returned! I have done the same in another grocery store whose very indecent magazines were eye level for my children. The one manager gave me a grumble about it, but the next time I came back they were moved as well. I just wanted to add a reminder to let those who do change things, or who are doing things the right way that we should commend them! We need to speak out against the evil in our world but we should also encourage those companies who are being decent to continue in their ways.

    Kerri

  18. As a mother to 4 boys I can so relate to how difficult it is to shelter my sons. It is so sad that it is so acceptable to have such imagry.

    However, I wonder if the tables were turned if so many men would have a problem! I mean would your husband like to sit next to a giant life size image of man in a bikini and a provocative pose???? I don’t think so!

  19. while i detest pornography and what it does to people, pornography isnt the real problem. its the hearts tendency to gravitate toward things that arent good for it. lust. pleasure. and in todays society, you wont escape it.

    i get very annoyed too, like when i read cosmopolitan on the newsstands…….when i pass the adult book store….or the raunchy billboards. but im not goint to use all my time speaking out against it either.

    furthermore, i actually think it a good exercise for people today to deal with running into sin now and again. living in a bubble wont help us grow, or mature. my husband had a porn problem too….and an establishment he delivered to…..had porn on the walls. instead of asking it to be removed, he fought it. he had many opportuntiies to fight it. fighting the temptations can make you a stronger person. trying to remove all strongholds out of your path…….has the propensity to leave people crippled. ive been around many addicts and i see the tendency to stay immature, due to being scared to face it head on. we can overcome instances to sin. we dont have to remove each one.

    however, im angry as anyone and yes, when i walk into places in unnerves me as well…..but ive chosen to accept it…..the world as it is.

    IMO when Jesus spoke, most of it was against spiritual abuse and power and control and gasp….legalism. not how a woman dressed. he wasnt out to eradicate sin. he was to show another option. HIM.

  20. authentically me,

    One question:

    What do you do with the large portions of Scripture that refute your ideas?

    What you say tickles the ear; sometimes. But, I’ve not seen you back up your theology with Scripture, nor have I understood how you explain away the whole of Scripture that produced balance to sound doctrine.

    Jesus wasn’t out to eradicate sin?

    “Go, and SIN no more.” (To the adultress)

    “If your right hand causes you to sin, CUT IT OFF”.

    That’s pretty strong language, dear.

    “Whoever offends one of these little ones, it is better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and drowned in the depths of the sea.”

    By the way, “legalism” that you hint I’m guilty of, is when you believe that salvation is something that can be earned by our deeds. (That’s what Jesus blasted–NOT believing in Jesus as the Son of God, and instead believing that the ceremonial laws justified a person. By the way, Jesus says of those “works” the Pharisees did, “THESE YOU SHOULD BE DOING, but also love, justice and mercy.)

    I emphatically do NOT believe a person is saved by anything of his own. I believe “if you love Me, you will keep my commands”.

  21. actually, that is not what legalism is. that is what ill call ‘topical’ legalism……at a glance. it goes much deeper. if left go, like any other sin……it takes over…….and leaves a conscience seared. ive stated what it is further in another post a few months back. if you chose not to give it any further thought, that is your doing. the book of galatians isnt the only book to fight legalism. im sure if i looked further, id find hints of not practicing it in literally every book of the bible! i can connect dots too…..and that is how i arrive at my conclusions about legalism.

    you want me to show scripture. for what? youd only tear my references down, as ive seen done to anyone else who refutres or challenges ideas in either this blog, or the many message boards across the internet devoted to this type of doctrine. i spent hours digging up scripture for someone a few months back…..what a waste of my time. plus, id venture ot bet many who answer your blog here couldnt even use but the obvious, over quoted and ovelry familiar scripture to support anything….kind of like a robot would quote it…..prime it and plug it in.

    so you think jesus meant to literally cut off the hand, or gouge out the eye? we’d ALL be blind if we followed that one by now.

    you think Jesus is out to eradicate sin? today? in this world, as it stands? um, impossible. he propitiated for it….to my knowledge, and scripturally speaking….he isnt doing away with it as we walk the earth we know now. when he says go and sin no more……he meant characteristically, we know this due to other things stated in the bible. the only time i thought sin will be 100% non present, is when we are in his full presence again.

    regarding the pornography stuff, i have found it possible to actually ‘sexualize’ a child before his capability to understand-by drawing attention to something their innocence otherwise wouldnt have noticed. that also could be leading little ones astray.

  22. Let me qualify one thing you are misrepresenting here…

    I or no one else is suggesting we are to live a sinless life, or sin can be eradicated in this life. Here’s the thing…

    The Bible cannot contradict itself, and yet somethimes it seems to.

    The entire Bible constantly urges us to put away sin, stop sinning, avoid sin, flee from sin, strive for holiness, etc.

    At the same time, we know we will not be perfect until Heaven.

    That said, we are left with the conclusion that we are to hate sin, try not to do it, even though we fail, keep growing, keep striving, and keep leaning on the power of Christ over sin in our lives.

    It’s much the same as a parent/child analogy…obedience to parents is for THEIR good, and a sign of honor to us.

    When they disobey, it doesn’t make them less of my child, or when they obey, they are not loved any more.

    But they are still to keep seeking obedience, for their own good. It’s so simple I can’t even believe this has become such a deceptive teaching.

  23. i was simply answering your quote of me, “Jesus didnt come to eradicate sin?”…..then you answered with “go and SIN no more”. if i misunderstood, it was accidental. i wonder then what else you were getting at, by reposing my statment as a question?

    i agree with everything you just wrote in your last post. i think how we arrive there seems different though.

    i know i read somewhere here today about there only being one interpretation. how does anyone really know the way they read it is the correct way? i see different interpretations more as different angles or planes, each one being fluidly right…..somehow, they all jostle together. otherwise why would we need to be enlightened by the spiritual gifts of others. but, the topic of interpretation is off topic. i just wonder how any point is ever valid EVER to you if it doesnt swim with the interpretation you follow? isnt there any room for improvement, ever? what about growth? what about understanding? confusing.

  24. sounds like “aunthentically me” would rather that we desensitize ourselves to the sin we come in contact with. But if we do this, wouldn’t we then begin to forget to pray for those who sin? For example, Brittney Spears. If we are so desensitized to sin we would look at her life and see a pathetic person with issues, but as a Christian we would see a sin ridden life who desperately needs Christ! Much like the girl who posed for the Busweiser poster. Also, when it comes to our children, pornagraphy is not something that need to “learn to fight”. If they see this on a daily basis, they may have unrealistic expectations of what their spouse should look like or even what they themselves should look like. Or in a worse scenario, become addicted to porn. A child and many adults are not equipped to “fight” sin such as this. And once something is seen it is not easily erased from the mind. Thank you Kelly for standing up for our men and children. That’s one more battle that Satan lost! Praise the Lord!

  25. SS99,

    I agree with you. AM is so off-based here, from a Christian perspective, it’s hardly worth the effort countering. Except for those that could be led astray by that philosophy…

    another point of how dangerous this anti-biblical theology is running rampant in the church.

    It has taken what God says is an abomination, what He said he would curse a nation for, and made it out to be soft, “pitiful” mishap that need only be petted or ignorned. That’s not the God I serve.

  26. WHERE did i say to desensitize to sin? i have a huge heart for people like Britney Spears……no, allow me to rephrase that: i have a huge heart for the downtrodden, abused, ignored, etc. my spiritual gift is most likely compassion/mercy. and do you realize the both of you-Kelli and Susan…..that you are denigrating my character, and sound like you are speaking to me form a pedastool? “sounds like ‘authentically me’….”….first of all, you are ASSUMING. you see one-tenth of who or what you think i am, which is a christian, for starters. how would you like it if i said, “sounds like ‘suzanna’…..”

    ” AM is so off-based here, from a Christian perspective, it’s hardly worth the effort countering.”

    gee, thanks.

    im only off based according to your ‘interpretation’. im sick of people claiming Gods interpretation is their 100% exact interpretation.

    i was where a lot of you were at. i dont excuse sin. but i do see a world in severe need of grace. try pointing out Britneys sin to her today, and see how an already shame filled woman reacts to that. i deal with people daily…….grace works. i havent seen many ‘take advantage’ of it as you are suggesting.

    you can keep exercising your gift of prophecy, ill exercise mine of compassion/mercy. i can agree that somewhere, all gifts are necessary…….and as a conglomerate, echo God.

    i come from an independent fundamentalist Baptist background…homeschooled, no birth control, quiverful,no working outside the home, etc. it was good for me to realize what was motivating me to that mindset (im not saying there is ANYTHING wrong with any of those things)..just saying it did not work for me and God uses many things and many paths in a persons life. none of you know without a shadow of a doubt that God does not live inside me, or run my life. you see in words what i type and now have ‘classified’ me as these you see in church who coddle sin. im merely saying that not everyone who operates differently than you all is out of the will of god.

    pornography-i tried to tell ya’ll a few times what the heart issues of pornography are form what ive seen. nothing on the outside of the body taints it, without the evil conception of the heart. just the fact some of you keep referring to pornography as ‘harming men and boys’ shows you dont fully understand. it harms little girls just as much! it harms everyone! i am married to a person who is addicted and church nor the body of chrsit was ever much help. God wons everything on this earth, and he chose to use things in life, and people, who i woudlnt have guessed, to help me. i have seen very few people helped in the church…….but i have seen a whole person counseling work form the inside out, and i could bridge that with my belief in God…..they were the same thing…….just not all the usual ‘terminology’. im sorry it seems no one here can give creedence to that. but it is my reality, and truth. and the truth doesnt change. you can tell me or God hismelf it was different, but the truth still stands. just becasue i dont have a verse for this transpiring in my life, doesnt make it any less valid.

  27. AM,

    I should have said this before now, and I lay all argument aside while I say that I am TRULY sorry that you are hurting. I can hear/see it in your words here, and I’m sure because of all the “battling” for truth, you must think I haven’t an ounce of compassion in my body.

    And that is so not true! I have, myself, dealt with severe baggage from my past; I grew up with a house full of siblings that came from an abused home–so severe it would make anyone shudder.

    I know about loving people where they are. And I sense that you believe I can’t speak the truth of God’s Word AND love people the same time.

    I’m not trying to beat people over the brow. I speak the same things God spoke. The culture has termed that “shaming” people. God warned the SINNER, all of us, that is, loud and clear, that wickedness, sin and unrighteousness would be punished, and that we must turn to God and away from sin.

    THe thing is, God always stands as a polar opposite to sin. It is not possible for a person’s heart to be turned to God and not hate sin at the same time.

    Brittney’s or anyone else’s abused life doesn’t give them a different destiny;

    I just want you to see that my speaking truth is out of loving others, not shaming them. BTW, I’m speaking to myself. Sin is always before us. But we are called to HATE it, in ourselves, in others–everywhere. We are asked to flee from its very presence…I’m just not hearing that part of your theology.

  28. AM,

    The problem/confusion with our debates is that you keep referencing things that haven’t even been said here. And then you infer things in your response that misleads things I have said.

    And then you mentioned “truth is truth”, but you have repeatedly spoken things that are not true. Regardless of abuse or the need for grace, truth cannot be altered.

    You said, “…im not goint to use all my time speaking out against it [pornography] either… i actually think it a good exercise for people today to deal with running into sin now and again….he [Jesus] wasnt out to eradicate sin. he was to show another option. HIM.

    Your theory sounds great from a human perspective. But that’s the problem–God has spoken and we can’t change that! This is what HE said regarding sin:

    “Flee from the very appearance of evil”.

    “When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at YOUR hand.” (emphasis mine)

    “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

    See, my problem is that when I hold your words in one hand, and Scripture in the other, they contradict. You use partial truth, truth wrapped in deceit, etc.

    I have never said to be harsh with people, or mean, or snooty, or whatever. Truth always with grace…but grace is not grace at all without truth. It then becomes poison.

  29. Kelly…

    Lately, I have not felt linguisitically talented…….and I know my posts have come off choppy, disorganized, and disheveled. I can see how that would lead to confusion, as my thoughts and ‘connecting dots’ is therefore difficult to follow. Admittedly, I have posted somewhat rushingly, and I probably shoudl have waited until a more opportune time arose, whereas I could express myself in a way that was more easily ‘perceived’ by others.

    I never intended to ‘interject’ things into my psots, that ‘supposed’ anything about yours. Sometiems i go off on a tangent, and apparently never reel myself back in. sloppy posting…….was not deliberate or intended, but i will take more care to exercise carefulness form here out……..though my writing/typing abilities may not be as strong as some. im scatterbrained.

    shame………i had typed a better response in some older post about my take on shame. it was actually fairly readable, too. haha.

    ‘truth is truth’ was in the context of my experience (i know experience isnt all of TRUTH)..meaning, I had been fundamentalist, for about 12 years…..and was led a different path, never leaving Gods side…..and not subscribing to a ‘doctrine’ or ‘group’ or ‘mentality’. Meaning, I just went where I was led. I myself didnt like it. I was afraid. But in hindsight, I see how I am much more free and at peace. When i was playing ‘rule-keeper’ i thought i had peace…….but it was awful (for me). so, anyway, my ‘truth is truth’ comment was regarding MY life. saying that is how it transpired…and it is the truth of my experince, but also i dont see how it is outside of the boundaries of Gods Truth. They should be the same thing.

    I do not know of course if your ‘rule’ keeping’ or ‘doctrine obeying’ is exaggerated beyond love for people, but it comes off that way, somewhat. I know this is the internet and we cant always receive a post while grasping a full image of the person we ‘talk’ to. I am simply saying it seems the rule keeping and micro-managing of life is much of the focus of your blog, or maybe your life? I dont know.

    I suppose I just chalk it up as reading Scripture differently than you. I know living that way severly harmed me….not hurt me, HARMED me. hurting and pain can be good…..harm never is.

    I am much more self-aware than I was 10 years ago. I am in my own skin now. I truly believe people cant deal with what they arent aware, or honest about. In my own skin, I can see the inner me. It is then that I can hold msyelf more accoutnable.

    Regarding the pornography, I tried to state what perspectives I fidn ‘off the mark’. Trust me, I loathe pornography. I am not syaing its no big deal…..its huge…..I am currently doing a workshop on a recovery site regarding pornography and how it eats the heart, mind, etc. I am just syaing to always try to remove obstacles….can cripple people. Some obstacles help us build character. I have seen this in my life, at least. Sin can be sued for good and sometimes I think this is a way it is…..we learn how to battle it on a deeperlevel, then simply removing it. However…….just to be clear……I never thought you asking to remove the cardboard replica of the ‘babes’ was wrong….I actually find it brave and noble…I get disgusted too. Sometiems we cannot remove every trace of sin in society, and due to that I think it can make us stronger…though we musnt either be taken down by it. Its a fine line.

    Hopefully that clears some things up. I definitely get angered over some things I read here, because they are reitterators of why I had to get out of what I call ‘legalism’ (which may not be the same exact thing you call it…or are experiencing). Just as you hope to keep anyone form ‘falling’, so do I become concerned over some things and attitudes I read here. But, its my own i should worry about. I know my attitude has come off less than kind at times and for that i was wrong.

  30. “I do not know of course if your ‘rule’ keeping’ or ‘doctrine obeying’ is exaggerated beyond love for people, but it comes off that way, somewhat.”

    Just for clarification, which rules/doctrines are you referring to that I have stated on this blog?

    Admittedly, the “prophet” part of me stresses issues of truth…AND, this blog was created to address what I perceive as a lack of adhering to principles of truth. But they are Scriptural principles, not mine.

    Have I established some standard of behavior here that is not biblical?

  31. Just found your blog through Kathy’s. I completely with you. I know that feeling you had. And as for the previous poster- the only “freedom” that you will ever have is through rules. If all of us did what “felt” right we wouldn’t be free at all. We would be in bondage to sin, our own human nature. By following Biblical precepts, and allowing God to govern our lives, we have true freedom to live as God intended us to be- in fellowship with Him.

    You can even see the effects of this in children. Well governed, structured children are much happier than those that are left to their own devices. Just as parents guide their children into becoming respectful, purposeful adults God guides us into being the fruits of His labor. And that does not include staring at a pornographic beer handler.

  32. Christy,

    That’s a good point…Christians are so afraid to talk about “rules”, and yet we shouldn’t be…because of what you described.

  33. ***Just for clarification, which rules/doctrines are you referring to that I have stated on this blog?***

    no birth control, mostly dresses, homneschooling only, no working mothers, etc.

    ***Admittedly, the “prophet” part of me stresses issues of truth…AND, this blog was created to address what I perceive as a lack of adhering to principles of truth. But they are Scriptural principles, not mine. ***

    but you said, your perception. i often what makes one think they (and the people the circle with) have the gift of perfect interpretation, and the rest of us are erroneous?

    ***Have I established some standard of behavior here that is not biblical?
    ***

    homeschooling, birth control, and not working are all within the biblical standards. so no argument there. my argument ensues where any birth control, any work outside the home, or any schooling other than at home-is construed as Unbiblical, or NOT living in the truth.

    your rules in and of themselves arent bad-they are good. they are your perceptions and the truth you choose to obey. but, there are a wider range of truths for working, and schooling. not only ONE.

    i suggest that where it can become dangerous is when ‘perceptions’ now become commands. i know the bible has principles to live by, and commands to obey. i have rules for my kids. i have rules and accountability for myself.

    as an analogy, i present to you a ruler. the ruler encompasses all the ways we could live, some within Gods boundaries, and some outside Gods will. your claim would be that between inches 4 and 6 are the rules, principles and commands to live by…and everything outside of those barriers is sinful. i would claim that between inches 3 and 9 lie Gods principles (with some fluidity for grey areas spoken of in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10). so while we agree on many issues of what exactly constitutes righteousness and sin…we disagree on where those boundaries fall. not the best analogy-but trying to get the point across that i dont believe your error exists in the principles or rules-i.e., homeschooling is a good, righteous thing. its just when its labeled as the only way or the ‘best-choice-always’, that i take issue.

  34. Dear Authenticallyme:
    You argue in your previous comment that God (as I’m supposing you’re referring to as the ruler in your analogy) gives us precepts but allows us a free range withing some of limit of the truth. At least that is what I gathered.

    Let’s just go with your thinking here:
    There is a law (a rule) that states that it is illegal to molest children. Someone breaks this law. You’re ruler wouldn’t put them in prison, because they only molested one child, not 5. And the child were only 15 years old, not 6. So quite obviously it’s not as bad. That’s only a seven on the “ruler”. It’s so close to six!!! So it slides. Then he molests two children. Again, on the “ruler” it’s closer to six than ten so that must not be so bad either. And the pattern continues.

    When man trusts his own will to guide himself, and abandons or disregards God’s Word, he is IN DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO THE ENTIRE CONTENTS THEREOF.

    Take Titus 2:4-5
    that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” –Titus 2:3-5

    There is no gray area here. It specifically states that if these things are abandoned that the Word of God is blasphemed. God doesn’t play games. He CANNOT lie. If He could He would not be God. He turned His back on His own Son because of OUR sin that He carried. (Matthew 27:46) God cannot “let it slide”. Don’t think that you carry more clout than Jesus Christ.

  35. thats not what i was saying at all. the actions of a molester would always fall outside the boundaries of what God says is holy. i was simply saying that between Kelly and I, we would have slightly differing ideas or convictions about what is black-and-white sin, and what are freedoms. i think certain types of music are freedoms, possibly Kelly would not. Kelly might possibly think from what she reads in the bible that to not be QF points to sin in the heart, i dont believe it is black and white sin. apparently, my ruler analogy gets an F-….didnt go over so well.

    ***Don’t think that you carry more clout than Jesus Christ.***

    i dont think i hold clout over Christ. nor do i find it necessary to be told that.

    it perplexes me as to why others on this blog can say statements such as that to me (what i have learned a few years ago to be “shaming statements”) but when i turn the table, im ‘spewing anger’.to me they are one and the same.

    ok……..just wanted to clarify that. i hadnt been aware this post was answered.

    goodbye.

  36. I agree, that comment was a bit hurtful. And I do not want to block your comments…it was the onslaught of dissention-filled comments that caused me to delete them.

    A blog like this is tricky: there will obviously be disagreeing and sometimes words are used that shouldn’t be, feelings are hurt, etc.

    I’m trying VERY hard to maintain an objective debate, without personal attacks. I give everyone some room for error (including myself!) but a constant strife-generating barrage is not helpful or growth-producing.

    Objective disagreement over a topic–fine. But what you were doing–just going in and attacking every post, that’s not what this blog is about.

    Really, I prefer to discuss among believers who hold similar doctrinal views and stick to the specific topics, not spend all my time defending the basic tenets of Christianity.

  37. Mrs. Grovine,

    ??? “Warrior, too, you need to realize that if you have a blog site, somebody is eventually going to come on who does not agree with you.”

    Did you not read my comments? Did I lead you to believe that I’m naive enough to think there won’t be disagreeing?

    It was the strife and dissention (which you can’t see because I deleted it) that I was addressing.

    And maybe I should clarify the “bar scene”…it may not matter to you, but this wasn’t a restaurant with a full-fledged bar (obvious immoral behavior, etc.), just a side with a counter over which alcohol is served, like most all major restaurants in the country.

    Serving alcohol doesn’t offend me, and therefore I don’t avoid places that serve it for my children. (That’s probably the difference in a Presbyterian vs. Baptist 😉

    Just thought I needed to say that.

  38. Mrs. Grovine,

    With all due respect, I had to chuckle at your reply. First, because you think my acceptance of alcohol has to do with my being a “younger Christian”.

    I’ve been a Christian for a very long time, and I once was adamantly opposed to alcohol, and I still have close (reformed) friends who are also…different subject altogether…and there has been much deep study and a prayerful arrival at my change of conviction on the issue. I don’t appreciate your coming to my blog and insulting my “young, dumb philosophies” because you are older than I.

    In case you didn’t know, most mature, devout Christians of history drank alcohol, including those in the Bible. The “no alcohol” stance among Christians came much later.

    Secondly, you keep getting your facts about my beliefs wrong. I haven’t mentioned that yet, but you just now said “you can’t let your kids watch tv…can’t use birth control, can’t let your women wear pants…”

    What are you talking about? Are you asserting that I belong to a church that forbids those things? Or are you asserting that I hold these “can’ts” for myself? Because neither of the two are true.

    I wear pants sometimes; I watch TV sometimes; and when I don’t do those things, it’s a choice we make, not a creed written in our bylaws. We personally don’t practice birth control. We didn’t sign anything that forbids it.

    Some people in the reformed, covenant faith practice birth control, and have much more liberal practicies than I may have personally. So it certainly isn’t a church thing, if that’s what you are implying.

    I am not “Dutch reformed”, so I don’t know what you’re talking about there either.

    Born royal??? Don’t know what your talking about.

    One of the main tenents of our church’s belief is that we are born totally depraved sinners, and our only hope for salvation is in the blood of Jesus. I think you are confused.

    I also think you are speaking out of turn. It is my opinion that you should start your own blog.

  39. Mrs. Grovine,

    I really appreciate your apology…it is understandable the frustration you might feel having come upon these “new” concepts later (which are mostly just old ones resurrected).

    I run across people in your age-range from time to time who also seem to carry a feeling of condemnation. I also think how sad that they are not able to say, “Wow, I didn’t know about that when I was raising children, but I’m behind you all the way!”

    I’ve mentioned before that one of the reasons I started this blog (which was originally entitled “The Birth Control Debate”) was to encourage Christians, REGARDLESS of their personal practice, to embrace God’s heart toward children being a blessing, and rally behind those who have chosen to accept all the children he would give them. (I don’t even like the term “quiver full” because it automaticlaly confines you within a group, instead of as a family just following the Lord’s leading.)

    Because if we’re all on the same side, we should all be excited about our army growing!

    Maybe that mentality can be applied to other areas as well?

    I consider our “journey” to be one where we have looked around at how Christians are copying so much of the culture’s lifestyle, and considered our own scars, and our observing other tragedies in the church left and right, and so asked ourselves, “Maybe we could avoid some of these pitfalls…maybe we should search deeper for answers in raising our children.”

    And so, breaking off from a “norm” our only desire is to try to avoid so much of the heartache we experienced in our own lives.

    I guess that’s what surprises me when we receive so much criticism. I am a woman who has reaped glorious benefits by obeying certain principles of Scripture, and have no other desire than to share them with others–much like I would share any “secret” that helped me. I never expected to make so many enemies! LOL

    Againk thank you for your apology…

  40. mrsgrovine again. Ok. And if I have insulted you in any other thing I have blogged on your site, I again apologize. Why don’t you go ahead and delete them.

  41. Younger women are to teach the older women? Older women are supposed to sit in the corner and admit that they did it all wrong when it comes to managing their families and educating their children?

  42. Ma’am,
    Something that bothers me is this:
    the comment, “then put her in the bar.” I am not condoning the scantily clad figure, but it seems to me that if the Bible says, “Abstain from all appearance of evil,” why would a Christian go into a restaurant that has a bar in it, only to meet with pictures that would ultimately offend your Christian faith? To say this comment was terribly uncouth, because you were in the vicinity of a place that had a bar in the first place. The restaurant has the freedom to be there, however, a Christian has the freedom to choose to not go to such an establishment if scenes or pictures like this are going to offend them. I made the unfortunate mistake one time of being with my Christian friend in a car (she is a young, Christian in the faith) and making the mistake of saying something along with gestures and talking about the guy who had pulled up behind me. I had put my foot in my foot, and next thing I know (i wasn’t even sure if he heard me or not), the man behind me comes around me and says, “Thanks a lot!” It bewildered me and embarassed me to say the least. It really humbled me and reminded me, I need to be careful what I say, because other non-Christians are going to be watching me and can misinterpret things said and gestures made that are not Christ-like in the slightest. To say the comment you made was unfortunately very self-righteous, as well as proud. I am saying this to you in love, as a Christian sister, because as Christians we can be prone to being proud in being self-righteous around others who do or do not practice the things that WE THINK they should be doing. I want to prevent other Christian brothers and sisters from making the unfortunate mistake above. Christians are just as guilty of pride as non-christians. Just cause we are saved does not mean we are not prone to sin. The best course of action would have been to walk out. I hope this helps you, because God really had to put my pride into place in the above situation mentioned. I now am going to try to be careful about what I say in public, because people can take it the wrong way, and you can possibly lose your chance to be an effective testimony of Christ’s love for them. Please “consider what I say, and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.” (the apostle Paul.)*

  43. Jessica C,

    I appreciate your thoughts. I’m wondering if you read my other comments where I clarified the “bar”…it was not a bar, but rather more like the smoking section where the alcohol was stored (most restaurants serve alcohol) by which I AM NOT OFFENDED, and therefore do not avoid such establishments.

    I do realize your truth about pride…thank you for that warning.

  44. Kelly,

    Thank you for making me think (and laugh). I may speak up the next time I find myself in a similar situation.

    Authenticallyme,

    “fighting the temptations can make you a stronger person. trying to remove all strongholds out of your path has the propensity to leave people crippled… we can overcome instances to sin. we dont have to remove each one.”

    Please consider the following:

    “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Matthew 6:13) (Lord’s prayer)

    “I will refuse to look at
    anything vile and vulgar.”
    Psalm 101:3

    “Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness”
    (2 Timothy 2:22)

    Please also consider how pornography affects the society we live in- One in three little girls are sexually abused by the age of three years old. The figures for boys are nearly equally devastating.

    I used to think that if I home school our children, keep them in our own home when friends come to play, don’t allow sleepovers ect that my children would be safe. After taking all of the above protective measures (and more that I won’t go into) you can imagine the shock and devastation our family experienced when we became aware that our children were being horribly sexually abused by thier next door neighbor friend in our own home when we were there. The abuse had gone on for more than a year. The friend who had abused them, I am sure, is also being abused.
    Our society is so awful that protecting our children, even in a small town in the midwest, has become impossible.

    We have pornography, in part, to thank for this tragedy. And by pornography I don’t mean just the kind that is labeled pornography. I mean the covers of Cosmopolitan, the card board “babes”, sexy commercials on TVs, add on the sides of buses… it’s inescapable. And the effects of this sinful lifestyle effect our children. And our children’s children.

    Now that my son has been abused, I have to be even more careful about avoiding provocative explisit things. I have found, even with home schooling and without TV, avoiding pornographic or suggestive material is impossible.

    I want to run away. I can finally pray, with a broken heart, that God’s kingdom come and will be done here on earth as it is in heaven.

  45. Even after I have edited the code in torrc to force US relay, it doesn’t always give me a US IP address. Many times I’ve run tor, then open pandora only for it to tell me that I have a Germany or Netherland IP address. Why 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 ?????

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